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Politicking putting this forum & campaign at risk
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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Politicking putting this forum & campaign at risk Reply with quote

A month ago we held a meeting at Belinda's on the evening of the London Stop The War march where Simon Aronowitz announced he will be withdrawing the nineeleven.co.uk domain name from this site on 15th June 2008 because he doesn't like the way it's going.

As editor I never had any communication from Simon that he was unhappy with my style of moderation. It was a blow to hear that he was effectively knobbling this site's google ratings and web connectivity as many hundreds of sites link to the nineeleven.co.uk domain.

At that meeting a consensus emerged to move the site to a new domain within a month. To give plenty of time for search engines and users to adjust that should have been set in train by Ian Neal, the only person who can do it, by the end of this week but it has not.

Ian Neal has decided to delay until the issue of the (consortia X editted IN) bid to take ownership of this site has been resolved. That will take many weeks or months because unless I am included in the new 'regime' I will contest their 'takeover bid'. People may remember I was given a probation last year and the site should have passed to me by February 2008. The (consortia X editted IN) takeover would mean a new system of anonymous moderators which will drastically reduce this site's accountability and credibility in the eyes of journalists and public alike.

The delay in moving domains is a disaster for this forum and its users but I have had no response to repeated phone calls, texts and Private Messages to Ian Neal over the last two days.

What I am faced with is a re-run of the Andrew Johnson episode last year with Ian Neal is entertaining secret complaints about me which have not been run past me and reversing decisions without telling me. A diabolical, bullying management style.

I have been given no opportunity to defend my actions. After the time and effort (2-3 hours a day) I've put in to keep this site looking relatively credible to journalists and anyone interested in 911, 7/7 and the War on Freedom over the last year or so I am honestly appauled at being treated in such a sneaky, underhand way.

There is common decency and there are also rules on this forum which have been put together by Justin, Ian and myself which have simply been ignored in a cult-like MI5 tactic whispering campaign against me.

Thankfully some people central to this campaign don't want decisions to be made in this fashion and have told me what's going on. Ian's reluctance to pick up the phone begins to make sense.

Faced with a wall of silence over the last two crucial days I am reluctantly resorting to informing forum users of the fashion in which meetings are being circumvented, by private networking and I hope Ian will give a full public explanation of his inaction now, specifically on not moving to the new domain this week, which is putting the movement, and the goodwill of all the genuine people who post here in jeopardy.

After that central issue has been addressed I would appreciate a full account of why he considers my stewardship a failure.

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Last edited by TonyGosling on Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Gerald Bostock
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is said that actions speak louder than words. I guess inactions do likewise.
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ian neal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I answered your text and PM by email to you tonight and yesterday evening. Here is yesterday's email

Quote:
Quote Tony's PM

Get this url change moving now please Ian.

And inform me before close of ISP business tomorrow (Friday).

If you delay any longer I'll have to put my foot down and go public.

Absolutely no faffing about or vetoing by the WY group who presently
have no role in this forum - this is really important.

End quote

Tony

This is not what we agreed. Any transfer was on the understanding that
both parties are happy with this. I haven't checked but it seems you are
not agreed otherwise you wouldn't be talking of vetoes.

If you and (consortia X) can reach a common agreement on the way forward, fine.

If not it goes to a vote of the committee as previously agreed

WYT lack of involvement previously means nothing. I would hand it over
to killtown if that was the majority view of the committee

Go public. Like I care. I'm trying to resolve this in private, as
accountably as possible and with the minimum of drama and ill feeling.

If you prefer to do this in public be my guest. I may or may not choose
to join such a public debate and either way it will not change the
process by which the decision will be made.

I haven't shared this further since it would undermine any chance of a
joint agreement.

Best

Ian


So Tony which bit are you struggling with?

The need to reach an agreement with (consortia x) before I implement any change or

Our collective agreement that should there be competing proposals as to the future of the forum that this would be put to a private vote of the committee.

Background

Keith's minutes of March 15

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=113855#113855

My announcement and subsequent discussion

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=13900


Last edited by ian neal on Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian,

You are mixing up two different issues

1. the domain move which is now extremely urgent
2. the competition which may or may not happen over the coming weeks for ownership of this database of content.

No texts, PMs or phone calls recieved here. Just got an acknowledgement of your switching on your mobile at about 9pm this evening with no reply. How much easier iof you had replied - and it sounds like you're denying that you have been making judgements about my abilities and keping me out of the loop.

Do I take it that (X) have vetoed the domain move?

Anyway, please answer the question straight.

If it's not in Keith's minutes then they are not an accurate record. You were there.

Have you initiated the domain move as agreed or not?

If not why not?

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ian neal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to your questions

TonyGosling wrote:
I sounds like you're denying that you have been making judgements about my abilities and keping me out of the loop.


I am denying this, yes. I think you imagine I'm busy hatching plots to oust you when in reality I'm sitting back waiting for concrete proposals to take the site off me.

TonyGosling wrote:
Do I take it that X have vetoed the domain move?


Not that I'm aware. Why not ask them? Equally neither have they said OK to me. If they do OK it, I'm OK to proceed. Which is what I said last time we spoke (Tuesday was it?)

TonyGosling wrote:
If it's not in Keith's minutes then they are not an accurate record. You were there.


If what's not in the minutes? What was agreed was that the committee will decide the forum's future (including the domain). If you and WY truth agree something, I will put that to the committee. I see no reason why that need take a long time.

All I'm trying to do is affect a smooth transition that best reflects the opinion of groups around the country (i.e the committee). Despite the time I too have put into the site, for the reasons explained I no longer want to be involved. I suggested a process by which the future of the forum would be decided which was accepted at the March 15 meeting.

That was the most accountable and fair way I could see to decide this. The alternative is Simon and I decide between us.

Now hopefully having clarified things, WHEN I GET TIME, I will call. This is the last post here from me on this. I choose to do this in private.

Best wishes

Ian
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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: dog's dinner Reply with quote

ian neal wrote:

If what's not in the minutes? What was agreed was that the committee will decide the forum's future (including the domain).

The decision we made last month to move to a new domain last week.

BTW who is 'the committee' these days?
If you ask me you should leave this decision until the new committee is elected at the AGM since the core of the current committee have resigned 9/11 Truth for Make War History.

So, the state of the forum is so dreadful that
Caz
Mick Meaney
Rosalie Woodberg
John White
Moheen Yaseen
Riaz Ahmed
Tony Gosling
May all have to go? What tosh!

XX has just sent an email round saying 'people are already voting'. I haven't even negotiated with XX yet who's on holiday in the USA.
If those negotiations fail I will put forward a counter proposal in a couple of weeks. So why are people 'already voting'. More nonsense. And Ants is trying in vain to pretend the server move last week doesn't matter. He clearly doesn't understand that Simon is pulling the domain.

Ian you have set off a pigs ear of a time bomb with your mishandling of this right in the middle of the campaign. And all because you chose not to discuss your 'throw your hats in the ring' proposal with me or any of the other moderators.

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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One apparently ignored option which I put forward would circumvent a 'private decision of the (non-existant) committee'.

That is to duplicate the database and hand it over to both the existing team and the new WY group.

as took place here
http://sf.indymedia.org/
http://www.indybay.org/

Then we'd have both a pro and anti alien version of ths forum and everyone would be happy.

It would also save a lot of wasted time and energy. And there would be no grist to Larry O'Hara's 911 Cult Watch mill.

Whatever happens - the domain must be moved right now Ian.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ian you have set off a pigs ear of a time bomb with your mishandling of this right in the middle of the campaign. And all because you chose not to discuss your 'throw your hats in the ring' proposal with me or any of the other moderators.


I would just like to attest here to my own experience regarding Ian Neal who I have always found to be scrupulously fair and impartial in his dealings surrounding the Forum.

I believe it is mistaken to blame Ian for any controversy which has arisen and I can fully sympathise with any feelings of exasperation he might have leading him to feel the need to retire. Similarly, if Simon Aaronowitz wants to pull out he's entirely within his rights so to do.

As well as this I believe it wrong to put pressure on Ian as an individual just now. He has, all along, simply been doing his best in the interests of both 911 Truth and impartiality. Clearly the matter of the future of the Forum must & will be decided but only within the context of what the National Committee should decide. That is the only democratic mechanism that exists right now.

As for the future of the Forum, so far most of what has been said has been off the Forum with this thread making it go public.

As a result of recent events I have added my comments to a private exchange of emails that has been flying around. In a nutshell, I feel very strongly that a Forum should be a place for free and open discussion within commonly understood constraints of public decency, self-constraint and non-discrimination. Where that ideological freedom is lacking then there exists a very serious editorial problem which needs to be addressed & dealt with.

Unfortunately, such difficulties inevitably lead to personality differences. Where such differences cannot be solved amicably, something has to change. I have made my own views quite clear in private as to how I see things at present. I don't want to be drawn into a public slanging-match as I see no point in such.

But it's very clear to me that the present status quo is both inappropriate and unacceptable. The running of a newspaper by an editor who is commissioned to promote a certain political viewpoint is one thing. To run a Forum in as free and fair a manner is quite another. The problem, I suspect, is that these two purposes have got mixed-up.

Hence, this needs sorting out.

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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here he is, like a bad penny. Yes, I know how much you lobby Ian Rory behind the scenes.

As you know, if I'd had my way you'd have been banned from disrupting EU posts this site a long long time ago becuase of your obsessive & disruptive support for the fascist EU, sucessfully knobbling almost all discussion of it here... and other stuff I can't be bothered to drag up under your previous incarnation, Vencemeros.

Every further minute of Ian's inaction is a betrayal of last month's face to face meeting and more mildew on the connectivity of this site.

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Last edited by TonyGosling on Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ian neal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: dog's dinner Reply with quote

Right I will answer these questions and then I really really strongly advice to sort out the rest out in private and then lock this thread. If after it is resolved you are not happy you can of course put your account in the public domain. My friendly advice which you are free to ignore

TonyGosling wrote:
ian neal wrote:

If what's not in the minutes? What was agreed was that the committee will decide the forum's future (including the domain).

The decision we made last month to move to a new domain last week.


We did indeed decide to move the forum to a new domain ONCE it is agreed by the campaign's committee what the future of teh forum would be. Specifically what domain, under whose ownership and under whose management. As soon as that is agreed it will happen.

[quote="TonyGosling"]
ian neal wrote:

BTW who is 'the committee' these days?

If you ask me you should leave this decision until the new committee is elected at the AGM since the core of the current committee have resigned 9/11 Truth for Make War History.


This explains a lot. The committee is the list which I have emailed around twice. Search your emails, look for attachments and there it will be. As you see it comprises 41 names which is basically the office holders (those of us lucky enough to have meaningless titles such as co-chair) and representatives of all the recognised local groups.

As a point of clarification, whilst Annie and I do support and have offered advice/support to Make War History this is not what lies behind my resignation and it would be inaccurate to portray us as majorly involved in Make War History. Maybe I would be if I wasn't so busy with this and my life (you know....kids, job, etc. ). No other committee members are involved in MWH.

So whilst at the next AGM new committee officers may be elected if it continues under its present constitution the fact that the current office holders have stepped down does not mean the committee actually changes greatly as a result.

[quote="TonyGosling"]
ian neal wrote:

So, the state of the forum is so dreadful that
Caz
Mick Meaney
Rosalie Woodberg
John White
Moheen Yaseen
Riaz Ahmed
Tony Gosling
May all have to go? What tosh!

XX has just sent an email round saying 'people are already voting'. I haven't even negotiated with XX yet who's on holiday in the USA.
If those negotiations fail I will put forward a counter proposal in a couple of weeks. So why are people 'already voting'. More nonsense. And Ants is trying in vain to pretend the server move last week doesn't matter. He clearly doesn't understand that Simon is pulling the domain.


Has your experience of running this forum taught you nothing? Nothing? The domain needs to be owned by someone. They have the ultimate power as you have it appears only recently learnt. This is likely to be the same person who also controls the passwords for the ISP and for the management system that allows that person to edit, design, structure and decide who is a moderator.

That person can choose to approach anyone to be a moderator including if they so wish

Caz
Mick Meaney
Rosalie Woodberg
John White
Moheen Yaseen
Riaz Ahmed
Tony Gosling

The management style and working arrangement may (or may not) be very harmonious and team like and include lots of people but nothing gets around this simple reality unless you wish to propose a more complex system of ownership of the URL than having one named person.

Besides if I have one over riding piece of advice on managing public forums it is MODERATION BY COMMITTEE DOES NOT WORK. IMO you need a tight group of people who are able to meet face to face and who have a common shared understanding of what they are trying to create.

But my advice is on a strictly take it or leave it basis since I will soon be no longer involved and others must choose their way.

Now as already mentioned including in my reply to your group email this afternoon, there are 2 proposals on the table. Yours which is largely undefined but can be presumed to be 'business as usual' and the proposal from 'consortia X'. I call it consortia X because one possiblity they are looking at is to moderate anonymously (I believe in an attempt to take some of the politics out of moderating). I have editted your post to say the person on holiday who is part of the consortia is XX so this possibility of anonymity is still possible. So stop putting their identity in the public domain unless they are agreed to this.

Now guess what they are voting on? (note: this is an internal vote within the 'consortia' and nothing to do with me or any committee vote). Whether or not they wish to work with you. Geddit?

They are testing whether within their consortia they will work with you and thus avoid any need for a vote. But hey if you were in contact with them or even had read my email this afternoon that replied to your own you would know this. Which is why I'm confused. You see when we spoke on Monday you told me that the two groups are agreed to be working together and there will be no need for any vote. To which I replied, fine by me. Let me know the details and I will put it to the committee. It seems that perhaps you were less agreed than you thought.

TonyGosling wrote:

Ian you have set off a pigs ear of a time bomb with your mishandling of this right in the middle of the campaign. And all because you chose not to discuss your 'throw your hats in the ring' proposal with me or any of the other moderators.


What is there to discuss? I posted my first post. I attended the meeting on March 15. It noted there were various tentative offers on the table to run the forum and it was agreed that the ultimate decision would be the responsibility of the campaign committee (even though the forum and campaign are unconnected, but because the campaign's committee is the most representative group of 9/11 truth opinion in this country). I emailled an announcement detailing the process by which this decision would be made to the committee including yourself and asked anyone who had a problem with the process to say so. You said nothing.

Besides there is another way. Simon and I could decide what the future of the forum will be. I decided to involve the committee since this was the fairest most 'democratic' way I could think of to decide.

Right I will now lock this thread. If you really want to unlock it, do so.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: dog's dinner Reply with quote

Ian you have no right to stifle this discussion.

When and where is this full meeting of the remains of the committee taking place? I certainly haven't received an invite (unless its on email which I only check about twice a week).
One of the main problems of the committee (apart from the fact that it never meets) is that it only ever seems to discuss this forum which is not an official campaign forum anyway Wink What a bore.
I notice you also added the word 'secret' into the 'decision of the committee' description. You really are inviting Larry O'Hara to have a field-day with this campaign. I suppose we will all be meeting under Chatham House rules too? Rolling Eyes

You are trying to act as judge and jury exonerating yourself for what is (if you don't get your finger out) a potentially disasterous decision which YOU, not those who met last month, have made.

You have brought a public discussion of this on yourself firstly because you don't trust me and secondly because, rather than listening to common sense and reason you are trying to dig yourself in to defend a rash decision you have made. Your inaction, in this case, is a decision in itself.

We all agreed, whether Keith wrote it down or not, that the domain would be transferred no later that ONE MONTH after the date of the meeting to give migration time. The redirect should be starting NOW because Simon is pulling the domain on June 15th 2008.

Anyone who understands how the internet works knows how important it is to make this domain move without delay.

If you want I can transfer the ownership of www.911forum.org.uk to you immediately then you can get moving.

I am looking out for the best for this community and you are being a stick-in-the mud. It's really ugly that it has come to this to get you to

1. listen
2. act for the forum rather than your own reputation
3. do what you said you'd do

And finally....
there is no need to have a 'competition for the forum and a secret decision of the committee'. If we have two or even three competing groups wanting to take the forum in different directions they can ALL do that. There is no need for the database of posts to only go to one group it can go to them ALL.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically what you are asking me to do (transfer the site to a new domain along with the codes to manage and moderate the site) is the end of the process.

Whichever individual or entity owns the domain and pocesses the passwords is the one in control of the site.

I will do this as soon as the committee is agreed on these details. I have set out the details of this process which has all been clear and transparent and if needs be I can produce the emails to demonstrate this.

But let's rewind. Clearly you are unhappy with the process: who should make this decision and how it should be made. This is despite me spelling it out several times and giving you and others the time and opportunity to object and propose alternatives.

Well tell you what. You make a proposal. You tell me what you think would be a fair and transparent way of doing this (in the 6 weeks that remain before June 15) so the decision best reflects the opinion of 9/11 truth campaigners in the UK and I will consider it. But do it quckly or otherwise it goes to a vote after next Friday (as stated in yesterday's email revising the timetable to give you and consortia x more time to consider IF you want to propose an agreed joint proposal)

But basically there will be no transfer unless there is this agreement or vote that reflects the wider will of 9/11 UK campaigners.

Your suggestion of 3 or 4 multiple copies of this site flying around the internet is a non-starter I suggest, but if you feel otherwise put this proposal in writing to the committee. In affect the third choice currently on the table (after yours and 'consortia X's) to freeze the site and keep it as a public archive on a holding page here with links to other 911 / 'truth' forums and an open invitation to people to go off set up their own forums/blogs/news portals/whatever as they see fit is very similar.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Ian it's not.

The domain name is a Domain Name Server (DNS) 'signpost' which Simon has decided to 'point away' from your server on 15th June. You will continue to control the content of the site because you are paying the ISP.

As I suggested the fairest and by far the least time-wasting way out of this minor maelstrom is for 'consortia X' (edit IN: STOP PUTTING THEIR IDENTITY IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN) to register their own preferred domain name to replace www.nineeleven.co.uk.

Their new ISP can then copy the database. We'd then have two versions of this forum on the web one would be mine and one would be theirs. People can then choose which editorial mission statement they prefer, they might even re-register with both.

Then you're shot of it!

But please please please talk to your ISP straight away about the domain move NOW and let me know the nameservers and I'll set them up on www.911forum.org.uk.

You may have noticed I have already configured www.911forum.org.uk to point to the forum at my end. If you type it into your browser you get this site. See this for example.

http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewforum.php?f=10

This sort of difficulty between editors (me) and managers (you) goes back as long as printing itself.

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ian neal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should I assume that this is in essense is your final proposal?

That you won't be looking further at whether you and 'consortia X' can work together.

That your proposal is that the site is copied to two sites on two URL's with 2 different managements.

If so, we can cut to the chase and see if this has the support of the committee.

I suspect you won't be happy with this last bit. But there are basically 3 ways to make this decision

Either

1) I make it in consultation with Simon
2) The committee makes it or
3) You make an alternative suggestion as to how the decision is made.

Any proposal you make will need to attempt to reflect the will of 911 truth campaigners in this country or I will veto it.

Best wishes

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Keith Mothersson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Meeting of March 15 Reply with quote

Hi Tony

As the chair and minutes taker on March 15th, I disagree with your assessment that we all agreed that the Domain Name transfer stuff was going to happen within a month i.e. with 8 weeks transition time.

Quote:
We all agreed, whether Keith wrote it down or not, that the domain would be transferred no later that ONE MONTH after the date of the meeting to give migration time. The redirect should be starting NOW because Simon is pulling the domain on June 15th 2008.


I do acknowledge that you expressed concern about the domain name transfer happening as soon as possible, but the meeting decided that that would be decided after the committee had decided about the passing on arrangements for the site or sites as a whole - which at the very end of the March 15th meeting (with about 9 of us still left) I tried to get nailed down, with nem con, for 'towards the end of May' - 30 May or it could have been interpreted also as 23 May = 3 weeks time for preparations for transferring.

It seems clear that I am the only one who now thinks that a face to face context for a secret vote of the committee would be the best way forward. Probably to meet your concerns about transfer time requirements, Ian has proposed a faster system.

The next bit is fromme qua individual, not chair/minutes taker of that meeting:

Whatever Ian decides procedurally may or may not be to my liking, but at least I trust him to act fairly and without getting het up and intemperate, etc.

Politics isn't just about diligent research and fluent writing, it is also about social skills, personal consistency, calomness sundeer pressure. Alas, the more some/?many of us worry about your having the appropriate skill-set to take over the forum, the more you provide us with reasons for worrying. Hopefully you will continue to find lots of useful ways to promote 911 truth in the future, but at this rate I personally think most people trust you more in a campainging journalistic mode than in editorial and moderating roles.

Any concretely spelled out 2 sides A4 plan for the future of the forum under Team Tony should address these concerns - e.g. by devolving these roles to others as far as possible, or e.g. the rule War PM Churchill gave to people that they could only say yes to requests from below, but if they wanted to say No to a request they should refer it up to him - well in your case you could find others in your team agreeing explicitly in the 2-sided A4 plan to forbid you to take precipitate moderating action until you have a) waited for 24 hours, and b) checked it out with them? That rule might have saved you from alienating severaal people in the last year or two.

That all said, there are lots of good things about the forum, some of which you have brought in, which I hope will continue in some or other form/forum in the future, whether that forum/those fora are led by you or others.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Sabateurs at work? Reply with quote

One copy of the forum content should be given to Tony to continue administering through www.911forum.org.uk .

Tony has proven his competence as lead moderator of this forum; his integrity and motivation for volunteering to take on this role is beyond reproach.

Any other proposals should be considered as a potential parallel version of the forum ... but my vote goes with Tony.

Ian R. Crane
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ianrcrane
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith wrote:
Quote:
Politics isn't just about diligent research and fluent writing, it is also about social skills, personal consistency, calomness sundeer pressure. Alas, the more some/?many of us worry about your having the appropriate skill-set to take over the forum, the more you provide us with reasons for worrying. Hopefully you will continue to find lots of useful ways to promote 911 truth in the future, but at this rate I personally think most people trust you more in a campainging journalistic mode than in editorial and moderating roles.


Keith, this observation is somewhat disingenuous ... to put it politely!

First of all, I don't think that there is a single person in the 9/11 UK Truth community that hasn't upset someone else at some time or another. By definition, the role of 'Moderator' cannot please all of the people, all of the time. I would much rather yield to a moderator who although I may not agree with every call ... I agree with the majority and either way, I respect his integrity. With Tony, you know exactly where you stand; he calls a spade a shovel and there is absolutely no ambiguity.

Tony has demonstrated a high level of consistency and an even higher level of devotion to what is often a thankless task.

With the possible exception of Anthony Beckett and/or Joseph Skelton I cannot think of any other 9/11 Truth Campaigners who might have the combination of skills/motivation/time/respect to take on such an important role.

... and finally; I certainly would not support any attempt to remove 9/11 from the URL of this forum. Indeed, I would categorically state that any attempt to do so should be viewed as an indication of ulterior motivation.

If the 'Campaign' is so weak that it can only see the forum as detrimental to the case for 9/11 Truth, it is indicative of an unfortunate lack of creativity, imagination and initiative

Ian R. Crane
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paul wright
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian, I composed a pm to you but decided not to send it
Like me, go with the flow is all I can suggest

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Sabateurs at work? Reply with quote

ianrcrane wrote:
One copy of the forum content should be given to Tony to continue administering through www.911forum.org.uk .

Tony has proven his competence as lead moderator of this forum; his integrity and motivation for volunteering to take on this role is beyond reproach.

Any other proposals should be considered as a potential parallel version of the forum ... but my vote goes with Tony.

Ian R. Crane


Thanks Ian

Your vote is noted
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Rory Winter
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One copy of the forum content should be given to Tony to continue administering through www.911forum.org.uk .

Tony has proven his competence as lead moderator of this forum; his integrity and motivation for volunteering to take on this role is beyond reproach.


With respect, Ian, I couldn't disagree more. Whereas Tony may have been technically competent his skills at human relations were disastrous (I speak in the past tense as I suspect his time here as Administrator is limited if not over).

Quote:
Keith, this observation is somewhat disingenuous ... to put it politely!


Again, no. Keith is not being calculating. On the contrary he is only saying kindly what others including myself have said more bluntly.

Tony ran this Forum under a reign of terror, threatening people with removal of articles and banning for reasons that had nothing at all to do with 911 and everything to do with his own ideological leanings. That was certainly not the behaviour of a responsible moderator or, in his case, Administrator as he would have it.

No one should fall for his latest trick of requesting a copy of the archives. This is a crafty way of gaining credibility for a breakaway forum which he will now form as the "authentic" 911 Truth forum.

If Tony wishes to play the Fallen Angel no one is stopping him. Redemption road lies as an open and empty path for him to travel. But we're not required to pay him a golden handshake or to do him any favours by allowing him rights to the archives.

Legally those belong to Simon Aronowitz who is the final judge though no doubt Simon would listen with respect to the National Committee's recommendations. I feel very strongly that Tony should not be afforded the luxury of the archives (to do what with? censor them? disappear non-persons like me?).

So my vote would be an emphatic NON.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If my understanding of the situation is correct then no action will be taken until all 41 names have viewed both proposals and voted for their prefered.

It seems voting has begun before we've seen the WY proposal... ?

Lets not allow personal feelings to cloud the decision making, everyone wants the same thing even if we disagree about how we get there.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One piece of misinformation which needs clarifying is the allegation that the committee has already resigned. The Campaign committee consists of eight directly elected officers plus one representative from each local group. My understanding is that Morgan Stack, who represented Ireland as a vice-chair, is the only member who has resigned and did so when campaigners in Ireland decided to go independent of Britain. May they have all the luck of the Irish!

The other seven officers have merely announced their intention to resign at the next AGM, scheduled for Sunday 6th July in Bristol. Until then all the remaining seven remain in post, as do the 30 or so representatives of each group.

Though this forum is not part of the British 9/11 Truth Campaign, many of us use it. It therefore seemed to be the most representative way to decide what happens to this forum to consult the campaign committee. A decision to do so was taken by a meeting of around 20 people held in London last month.

I believe that the best thing to do is to agree in advance that we shall abide by the decision of the committee once they have voted on the options presented to them. To go back on the decision taken last month to proceed in this way will merely create chaos.

Let's take a calm, rational decision collectively.

Peaceful and truthful wishes to all.

Noel
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Rory Winter
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the status quo remains as it is, there is a strong chance that the Scottish Group would consider seceding.

After the treatment I have received recently there is no way that I shall remain on this Forum under constant threat of banning simply due to an ideological difference with the Administrator ... something which has nothing whatsoever to do with 911 except in the tortuous thinking of certain individuals.

I am saddened how far from the subject we have strayed but that's what happens on a forum. A forum, however, should be policed lightly and that, alas, has not been happening. People like myself have fallen foul of ideological apartheid and that should never have happened.

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Pikey
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Let's take a calm, rational decision collectively.


Absolutely agree Noel and that decision has to made in the best interests of the GB&I 911 truth campaign aims and objectives. The decision needs to be made on everyone being fully and equally informed.

Quote:
One piece of misinformation which needs clarifying is the allegation that the committee has already resigned. The Campaign committee consists of eight directly elected officers plus one representative from each local group

The other seven officers have merely announced their intention to resign at the next AGM, scheduled for Sunday 6th July in Bristol. Until then all the remaining seven remain in post, as do the 30 or so representatives of each group.


Could our Secretary or acting Secretary list the names and their positions on the committee here as well as the representatives of each validated group.

Quote:
Though this forum is not part of the British 9/11 Truth Campaign,


This website is the hub of the UKs 911 truth campaign, it is its best resource and asset and the main media for communication, interaction and dissemination of 911 truth information.

As far as I am concerned this website and the campaign is owned by every bonafide GB & I 911 truth campaigner. Its value is in the information contained within it and the time allocated by those individuals who have made positive contributions to make what it is today.

The situation regarding the domain name should never have arisen. At the 2006 AGM in Blackpool it was resolved that ownership of the domain name be transfered to the campaign to the committee if necessary by paying Simon for it. Sadly this was not minuted and never actioned.

The deciision made before the 2006 AGM meeting to create an official site and not associate with www.nineeleven.co.uk was flawed and has imo proven to be a huge error of judgement. I hope that whatever decision is made, lthat we have learned from our past mistakes and the following facts are recognised:-

1. this site and its contents is publically recognised as the the official UK 911 truth campaign website

2. that the url has to be purchased and owned by its members

3. ditto the ISP

An opportunity for the current situation to repeat itself must not be allowed. Ownership of this website by an individual or an anonymous and unaccountable group...........never.


Quote:
It therefore seemed to be the most representative way to decide what happens to this forum to consult the campaign committee
.

Absolutely and constitutionally correct

Quote:
A decision to do so was taken by a meeting of around 20 people held in London last month.


This is were it goes pear shaped. Its absolutely constitutionally wrong.

Quote:
I believe that the best thing to do is to agree in advance that we shall abide by the decision of the committee once they have voted on the options presented to them.


I totally agree with that and put my faith and trust in our present elected committee to make the right decision. However give all supporters the opportunity of communicating with the committee and the truth group reps and making their views known.

Quote:
My understanding is that Morgan Stack, who represented Ireland as a vice-chair, is the only member who has resigned and did so when campaigners in Ireland decided to go independent of Britain. May they have all the luck of the Irish!


Thats a pity I was not aware of this. A name change/constitution amendment at the next AGM will be required to accomodate this.

Peace & truth

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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Meeting of March 15 Reply with quote

keith Mothersson wrote:
The meeting decided that that would be decided after the committee had decided about the passing on arrangements for the site or sites as a whole.


Which, knowing the decision making abilities of this group, will probably mean forever. Who are acting secretary and chair?

I hope everybody has the two emails I've sent round about sorting this mess out with the minimum of fuss and anguish. If not, ask around, and I'm sure somebody will forward you them.

Saturdays was entitled 'We must move the domain now' and Monday's was 'Hostile takeover bid for the forum?'. In the last one I explain why I think mass emails are not always the best way to express individual criticisms of fellow campaigners.

I am dismayed at the damage that indecisiveness (with regard to the domain transfer) and wooly process (with regard to whether I should keep the site, it should go to the West Yorkshire group or divided into two copies which we each have) is leading the campaign to.

This is one of the best '911/War on Freedom' sites in the world so we really must make the right decision now Simon has said he's pulling the domain on 16th June. As I've said before here we agreed that there should be at least two months nineeleven.co.uk redirect for the domains to switchover.

I bet both Dick Cheney and Larry O'Hara are having Kittens. Rolling Eyes


I've just had a thought - it can't hurt submitting www.911forum.org.uk domain to all and any search engines now, since it already points here. At least that might get the ball rolling with search engines beginning to pick up the new domain, even though it hasn't yet been actually moved. I'm not certain the search engines will be fooled though...

Try it though by all means
http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewforum.php?f=9

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, it is time to wake up and see how much this site has gone downhill under your command. There used to be loads of posts every day but now this has gone down to single figures. Many regulars have left. You let your beliefs get in the way and that is no way to run a form. You call yourself the Editor, yet forums do not have editors. You have started PM'ing users complaining of some sort of conspiracy against you. As a member of the comittee I have unfortunately had to receive far too many complaints about the way you run the forum. You took a unilateral decision on the new domain name and forum and this is not how democracy works. The NeoCons at leats allow an election, even if they do fix it.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyb wrote:
You call yourself the Editor, yet forums do not have editors.


As someone who in the past, had a post changed, by person unknown to me, that distorted the post so badly I had to delete it, to avoid having my "name" associated with it, I am asserting my intellectual property rights (which I believe I am and able to do, under the T&C's I subscribed to the original forum) and stating that if a database of the current forum is to be handed over to Tony Gosling, I want my account and all my posts deleted from that copy prior to him receiving it.

Who am I?

I am a nobody in the structure of the campaign.

I just go about my daily life, quietly promoting 9/11 truth and encouraging people to take a look at the "facts" for themselves.

I have followed this thread with some interest, watching the power struggle and fracture within the community. It is not something I wish to be a part of.

I do not know who Consortia X are, and may withdraw should they take over if I remain unhappy with their style of running the forum, but I am very clear about the position I outline above.

I thank the members of the committee who give more than a passing thought to this post.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to remember, were you there at the end of the meeting when we discussed the swapping over in a month or not?

The site has gone up and down in density and quality depending largely on current affairs getting very busy during the Glasgow Terror plot etc. We've also almost entirely got rid of the kookie stuff which plagued the front page. Of course it could be better but that requires your input advising me what you do or don't want me to do.

I disagree with you, this IS one of the best 911 sites in the world and remains so. It' so good to see the likes of Rick Segal saying so.

For example, we're in a difficult situation as a movement with Nick K being accused of holocaust denial by Rachel North just after I institute a 'get tough' policy on the holocaust, urged on me by users. I decided to make an exeption to the rule otherwise we would be censoring this crucial debate. It's only by taking my own prejudices out of the equation that this space can thrive but I do need people to PM me at the very least if they think I am being prejudiced. It's no good just moaning about me behind my back down the pub.

My quibble is that whilst people may well have legitimate grievances they have not run hardly any of them past me. I'm happy to be self-critical Andy and I'm happy to hand over if there is a due process rather than a witchhunt. I need to be confident that the forum's in safe hands.

If there turn out to be two 'camps' then it would make sense to let them go off amicably in their seperate directions rather than have a battle over the forum. For example the believers in aliens and the non-believers (I am the former). However it pans out.

I'm a very good listener and two months or so ago circulated Ian, Justin and several others asking if they had any comments on how my moderation should be improved reply zilch. I also PMd Noel asking him if he wanted a private chat about our differences, again zilch.

You say I'm not but I am the editor since I have appointed and have been responsible for a 'stable' of moderators. I also have a 'manager' Ian whos paying the bills but Ian maybe doesn't recall this short discussion where there were nods around he room and affirmation that the domain name shift has to happen after a month so we don't end up having the domain pulled out from under us with nobody knowing where the forum is.

Fran Scott
Ian Neal
James Robinson
John White
Mick Meaney
Paul Wright
Caz - runs the war on children section
Moheen Yaseen - Jihad for peace
and Keith Mothersson who, in turn, has appointed three more moderators o the scottish section

I think they're a bloody good honest and reliable team and would back them to the ends of the earth. I know Belinda and Moheen don't get on but I don't play favourites, just select people I think are politicaly astute enough for the job.

BTW, this is a lie.
andyb wrote:
You have started PM'ing users complaining of some sort of conspiracy against you.

Who have I sent such private messages to?
Nobody.
And why circulate such BS?
The trouble is I can't defend myself against lies if nobody has the courage to run their concerns, rumours or fears past me.

It's part of human nature I'm afraid that people would rather have a moan than risk making a move to change things for the better.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Uh-hu... Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
this IS one of the best sites in the world and remains so. It' so good to see the likes of Rick Segal saying so.


That would be Rick Siegel, producer of the debunked 9/11 Eyewitness film wouldn't it...? Rolling Eyes

This might be the "best" big tent but having so much nonsense linked to the questioning of the official story of 9/11 doesn't help, in fact it seriously hinders the movement.

andyb wrote:
Tony, it is time to wake up and see how much this site has gone downhill under your command.


This site has never been in much of a position to go further down hill has it... Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Please get your facts right... Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
we're in a difficult situation as a movement with Nick K being accused of holocaust denial by Rachel North just after I institute a 'get tough' policy on the holocaust


The original article "outing" Nick Kollerstrom was posted on 14th April on Blairwatch and your, Mossad trick - Link 9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial post was made on 17th April... How is the 14th "after" the 17th...? Rolling Eyes

In addition I'm not sure that saying he has been "accused of holocaust denial" is the right way to describe the situation since he has said:

Nick Kollerstrom wrote:
I note you seem to object to my having defended the proposition that: no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber. You call that Holocaust Denial, well Iím proud to be associated with it. Iím happy to defend, it any time, any place. It happens to be true!

http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014#comment-11826


He is clearly pleading guilty isn't he?

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