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IronSnot
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think putting the apologists and supporters of the official theory in a separate area is a good idea. I think if they're genuine their opposition strengthens arguments and makes people work harder, which I think is a big plus for allowing them to stay.

And if they're shills they won't be stopped by this.
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John White
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dissenting voices is not the problem: after all SoG and CTS started threads, had debate, and it didnt disrupt the forum

the issue seems to me to be blatent thread hijacking with no regard to the subject matter. A bit of wandering is one thing, but weve seen something more than that

By having a dissenting voices section, we show that the campaign is not adverse to discussing ALL the evidance for all the perspectives, whilst keeping the focus of the site as being based around dicussion of the evidance for Inside Job

After all, if that doesnt suit some people they can always go and start a pro 911 commision forum if they felt strongly enough: if they dont feel strongly enough, its a defused issue anyway

This would then allow moderators to deal effectviely with disruptive posting without having to apply blanket bans on what may be deliberate disruption or may simply be obtuse human nature

Which is to say, no "shills" would not be stopped by this but we can then deal effectively with "shills"

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Arkan_Wolfshade
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John White wrote:
Dissenting voices is not the problem: after all SoG and CTS started threads, had debate, and it didnt disrupt the forum

the issue seems to me to be blatent thread hijacking with no regard to the subject matter. A bit of wandering is one thing, but weve seen something more than that

By having a dissenting voices section, we show that the campaign is not adverse to discussing ALL the evidance for all the perspectives, whilst keeping the focus of the site as being based around dicussion of the evidance for Inside Job

After all, if that doesnt suit some people they can always go and start a pro 911 commision forum if they felt strongly enough: if they dont feel strongly enough, its a defused issue anyway

This would then allow moderators to deal effectviely with disruptive posting without having to apply blanket bans on what may be deliberate disruption or may simply be obtuse human nature

Which is to say, no "shills" would not be stopped by this but we can then deal effectively with "shills"


You should clarify your statement JW. Don't you mean people you accuse of being gov't shills; as opposed to people like yourself, who appear to be Al Qaeda shills?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont call anyone shills mate: but I accept the reality that intellignece agency operatives do exist: thats why I used "inverted commas" see?

I believe it is counter productive to suspect a poster of being anything else than a poster, and its far more productive to focus on ethical and fair behaviour being encouraged and, where necessary, enforced by moderation

Generally the movement is undergoing a learning curve to avoid distractions whilst responding to genuine interested parties

It isnt easy, people are passionate, mass murder tends to do that, and theres a need for self control

In my opinion, this site balances things rather well: its not perfect, but its way above most others

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kbo234
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkan_Wolfshade wrote:
John White wrote:
This would then allow moderators to deal effectviely with disruptive posting without having to apply blanket bans on what may be deliberate disruption or may simply be obtuse human nature



You should clarify your statement JW. Don't you mean people you accuse of being gov't shills; as opposed to people like yourself, who appear to be Al Qaeda shills?


John,

With creeps like Arkan Wolfshade you are not talking about 'obtuse human nature'
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John White
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh the Al Qaeda shills bit:

Is that how rational skeptics respond to percieved irrational comments? by making their own irrational comments?

I care about truth: its essential for justice: and without justice, there will be no peace

And mankind cannot afford Wars

Also on the topic of Al Qaeda, shall we discuss the paucity of evidance that they are anything else but the child of the CIA?

A new thread for that though, I believe

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Jane
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: The Data Base Reply with quote

John White wrote:

Quote:
Also on the topic of Al Qaeda, shall we discuss the paucity of evidence that they are anything else but the child of the CIA?

A new thread for that though, I believe


Guide me to the new thread, please John!

In the meantime, just to say, Netto (well, I can’t quite afford to have my groceries sent up from Fortnum & Masons these days!) being shut by the time I went out shopping today - I had to go to the local garage shop to buy a few things - I remembered as I set off that the garage is owned by a Muslim family and that both myself and my neighbour are aware that the two brothers who work there support George Galloway, etc, and speak out against the invasion of Iraq and the attitude towards Muslims by the British Media - I ran back and grabbed a spare copy of "Loose Change 2" which I gave to one of the brothers who was delighted, asking how did I managed to realise what was really going on - had I read "The Koran"? I said I had read the Sura "The Catastrophe" and that was enough (!) and that I "realised" the truth about 9/11 on the very day it hapended when I saw the twin towers being demolished....

He kept saying, "You are doing good work, thank you!"

He also said, as I was about to leave the shop:

"You do know, there is no “Al Qaeda” don’t you?

"Yes, I know, it just means "the database" (of helpful thugs) I responded...”those who were once helpful to the CIA” – he nodded!

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John White
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll dig up some material and start one Jane, if no-one beats me to it

The point is, theres a much larger persepctive on this than contrasting "opinions" on engineering properties by "experts": unfortunately, intellectual prostitution is as old a profession as the other kind!

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Arkan_Wolfshade
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John White wrote:
Oh the Al Qaeda shills bit:

Is that how rational skeptics respond to percieved irrational comments? by making their own irrational comments?

I care about truth: its essential for justice: and without justice, there will be no peace

And mankind cannot afford Wars

Also on the topic of Al Qaeda, shall we discuss the paucity of evidance that they are anything else but the child of the CIA?

A new thread for that though, I believe


Given the comments directed at myself, Gravy, etc since we began posting here you have the gaul to question a post I make that applies the same process to you as has been applied to me? I've seen nothing but derogatory comments directed at anyone that hasn't come to the same conclusions as you (you in the general sense of the nineeleven.co.uk board). If you care about the truth then work with your critics to correct and/or bolster your claims.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you choose to see is through the filter of your own conciousness and your responsibility Arkhan_Wolfshade

Quote me my derogatory comments, for example

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DeFecToR
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeFecToR wrote:


The problem i would have with that definition is that for someone to be fully versed in the subject of 911 and still believe the government line, they would have to be the absolute embodyment of cognitive dissonance. There would have to be so much information that that person would have to either ignore or completely misunderstand that they could hardly be called an authority on the subject. Granted, there are many people who seem to be experts who support the government line, but those people have often been shown to be entirely biased for one reason or another, stretching facts to fit their opinion whilst completely disregarding others.
Like Brian says, if the above catagory of person exists, roll him out.





After having patiently read through the varios posts here aswell as some of the so called 911 debunking sites i feel confident that my above comments were pretty much accurate. I've found that the majority of '911 truthers' are on a genuine search for truth and are willing to accept that certain areas of the arguement are less powerful as others (though there are many who are clinging to opinions regardless of evidence). I have not found this to be a general rule as far as debunkers go. It would seem that whenever a subject is brought up that debunkers cannot fully explain they either pass it off as irrelevent or ignore it completely. Previous posts in this topic as well as the 911 debunking sites show this quite well.
Dont forget, the case for government complicity is a 'culmative arguement', and as such weaker elements of the arguement do not show the arguement to be false. Any arguement of this nature must include ALL the facts bar none for it to be concidered correct. The debunkers case for Bin Laden to be the sole architect of the 911 attacks falls way short of this, having instead to rely only on fragments of the details surrounding 911 in order to support their case.
Over the past few days i've been flooded by recollections of details that the debunkers fail to answer. I'm preparing some of them at the moment and will post for discussion soon.

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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeFecToR wrote:
DeFecToR wrote:


The problem i would have with that definition is that for someone to be fully versed in the subject of 911 and still believe the government line, they would have to be the absolute embodyment of cognitive dissonance. There would have to be so much information that that person would have to either ignore or completely misunderstand that they could hardly be called an authority on the subject. Granted, there are many people who seem to be experts who support the government line, but those people have often been shown to be entirely biased for one reason or another, stretching facts to fit their opinion whilst completely disregarding others.
Like Brian says, if the above catagory of person exists, roll him out.





After having patiently read through the varios posts here aswell as some of the so called 911 debunking sites i feel confident that my above comments were pretty much accurate. I've found that the majority of '911 truthers' are on a genuine search for truth and are willing to accept that certain areas of the arguement are less powerful as others (though there are many who are clinging to opinions regardless of evidence). I have not found this to be a general rule as far as debunkers go. It would seem that whenever a subject is brought up that debunkers cannot fully explain they either pass it off as irrelevent or ignore it completely. Previous posts in this topic as well as the 911 debunking sites show this quite well.
Dont forget, the case for government complicity is a 'culmative arguement', and as such weaker elements of the arguement do not show the arguement to be false. Any arguement of this nature must include ALL the facts bar none for it to be concidered correct. The debunkers case for Bin Laden to be the sole architect of the 911 attacks falls way short of this, having instead to rely only on fragments of the details surrounding 911 in order to support their case.
Over the past few days i've been flooded by recollections of details that the debunkers fail to answer. I'm preparing some of them at the moment and will post for discussion soon.

I am very interested in this list of details. If you list them in a new thread, please post a link here.
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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John White wrote:
the issue seems to me to be blatent thread hijacking with no regard to the subject matter. A bit of wandering is one thing, but weve seen something more than that

I fail to see how a discussion centered around accusations of shillery threadjacked this thread, considering the OP:

Quote:
Is Jon Ronson a shill?
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John White
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to widen your perspective and realise that we have been having a conversation about the forum

I could see your tunnel focus as significant, if I had a mind to

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2748

What about here?

Thanks

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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John White wrote:
You need to widen your perspective and realise that we have been having a conversation about the forum

I could see your tunnel focus as significant, if I had a mind to

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2748

What about here?

Thanks

You're right, it's quite distracting to have every post be answered by references to my zionist sponsors, etc. In the future, I'll try to avoid responding when people such as Ally, kbo234, and Black Cat threadjack like that.
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IronSnot
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'ello Chipmunk. Ow's the wife? You're not telling lil' white lies again are you?

Bad, bad, bad boy.

Cool
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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronSnot wrote:
'ello Chipmunk. Ow's the wife? You're not telling lil' white lies again are you?

Bad, bad, bad boy.

Cool

That's not a threat is it? Should I call my wife and make sure she's okay??? Shocked
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IronSnot
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

chip - Helene are you ok?

Helene - ya, ich bin gut. Mein freund Iron ist hier. Er liebe Pattaya.

chip - who?

Helene - Iron, mein freund, dumpkopf.

Razz
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dry kleaner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw this was an old thread. Doh!
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