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Rachel from N.London on Alex Cox's Forum
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Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    9/11, 7/7 & the War on Freedom Forum Index -> London Bombings of Thursday 7th July 2005
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Rachel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Conspiracy debunkers Reply with quote

Ally wrote:
ian neal wrote:
Ally wrote:
Don't you think 7/7 was an inside job and needs discussing Ian ????


Given my belief that 9/11 was an inside job, that the war on terror is bogus, the record of UK intelligence services working hand in glove with terrorist organisations and the close ties between US and UK intelligence, I have no problem in believing that elements of the UK authorities were probably involved in 7/7.



I've still see no proof those guys from Leeds blew themselves up, Khan seems to be the dodgy one in the pack however the fake Luton photo of the 4 accused is evidence of a frame up. The warning issued to the Israeli embassy was shadier than a gypsy roofer.
Do you think they blew themselves up?

Do you have to use such racist turns of phrase, Ally?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Typos and Train Numbers Reply with quote

Mitch was quoted above as saying:
Quote:
stop the nonsense about the train carriage number as - how about this for a theory - someone mis-typed it? It's a pretty far-out theory, but there you go.

It can be definitely be ruled out that a typo, 311 instead of 331, was involved. On the 9th of July TfL issued a press release stating that train 311 exploded. The next day the number was changed to 331. However, it is not in doubt that train 311 exploded. Its driver, another T/Op in the cab and a station manager at Russell Square have said so. TfL still insist to this day that 331 exploded.

See http://inumeral.blogspot.com/ for the full story.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have pointed out before that London Underground themselves claimed that power surges can cause explosions, as they replied to me on 27th July:
Quote:
I'm afraid it's not accurate to say that the information given about a power surge was a 'story'. When the explosions happened, obviously they broke the track circuit. On the computer systems at network control, such a big break would look the same as a power surge. It's worth pointing out that we have never been the victim of a terrorist attack of this kind before, but on 28 August 2003 a power surge knocked out about half of the network. Such a surge can be accompanied by explosions. In other words, all the evidence we had at the time (including the information from the drivers) and our experience pointed to a power surge, so that's what we said it was. This information was given in good faith.

I am dismayed by reports in certain sections of the media that the term power surge was used as some kind of cover story until we were ready to reveal the truth. Indeed, I have to say that I take issue with calling it a 'story', as this seems to imply that we deliberately misled people. This is nonsense. As soon as we had evidence of what had actually happened, we made that information public.

Is there any possibility that when the counter-terrorist police interviewed you and told you that the bomb had been 'placed' at the end of the first carriage, there was no 'suicide-bomber' theory yet?
Quote:
Badger Kitten
10-07-2005, 03:50 AM

After detailed anti-terrorism staff interview I found out some stuff I needed to share.

The King X bomb was placed at the END of the first carriage, not the first set of doors on the front carriage as reprted on the news.

The tube tunnel was very narrow here, and the train was very crowded, which was why most of the people were killed and hurt at the back of carriage 1/ beginning of carriage 2.

I heard this from the counter-terrorism police who took my statement today: the BBC and ITN were wrong in their first reports.

From being there about 7-10 yards from blast, I can say that there were about 30- 50 behind me therefore who may not have got out alive. About 10 behind me walked to safety.

Rachel, it seems that stories 'change', perhaps to suit an agenda? You state on your own blog that you were '7 feet' away from the bomb, yet you say here you were 7 to 10 yards away. You were also unaware of whether the blast had occurred in the carriage behind yours or several carriages behind.
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Badger Kitten
08-07-2005, 04:53 PM
Quote:
When you say behind you, was it in the carriage behind you or could it have been a couple behind? If it was the carriage directly behind you then my theory is pants.

The explosion was so loud I can't tell if it was several carriages behind or the next one behind. It felt like being punched in the ears. All I know is I walked forward, escaped out the drivers hatch, it was unbelievably crowded, we escaped from the front and there was no bomb to my immediate left or right or in front of me. And I was in the middle by the door, and I fell to the left, by the doors. Then I got up and left by going straight head and out front. And the tunnel was intact.

That some of us, including the Antagonist, question these anomalies, need not be taken as a personal attack on any survivor. Surely you have as much need to know what really happened that day as anyone?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Numeral
I understand that Rachel has checked out the train number with TFL herself, but claims that in an effort to 'wind-up' some of us, she is reluctant to tell us what they have said.
Factual evidence, such as train times and train numbers along with carriage numbers, are an important part of the evidence that informs us of what really happened that morning.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was 7-10 feet away - when the bomb went off in my carriage I reckon I was about 7 feet away and when we all fell over I reckon I was 7-10 feet away. Do you know what? When a bomb goes off, you don't get out a tape measure and measure your distance from it. You just try to survive. On the 8th July I had no idea going from the sound of the explosion - which is what I am specifically talking about in the piece you quoted 24 hrs after the experience - where the bomb was, I could only describe what had happened to me. It is of course hard to comprehend that you have been so close to a bombm, and survived, especially when you are still deeply shocked and trying to block out what you have felt, smelt, tasted, heard and seen.

Now I know, from talking to fellow passengers, as well as the police, and from the evidence of my own senses, that it was in my carriage, as the news said. I can tell from the light, the deafening noise, the carnage, the damage.

Initial news reports placed the bomb at the first set of double doors - remember - no journalist had been down there and filmed it and the carriage roof had since collapsed- but it was in fact by the second set of double doors - which prompted me to call the police. Other survivors did so too, it is hard to describe quite how shocking it is to see a picture of where the bomb was and to know that you were supposed to be exactly where it has been illustrated. The BBC has now changed the picture at survivors' request.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/london_blasts/what_happene d/html/russell_sq.stm

The experience of people in other carriages was different to those in carriage one, because we were in the carriage with the bomb in it. This is getting rather tasteless, don't you think? No?

I don't have an agenda, for heaven's sake. I think quite a few people here do, though. And their agenda is to attempt to find evidence of a global conspiracy, then find 'facts' and 'anomalies' to back this up, being as selective as necessary.

I am not going to get into the numbers of the trains. There was one bombed Piccadilly line train. How do I know? Because I know 100 people who were on it, or who boarded it to rescue survivors straight after the blast occurred. Going into the number sof the trains tends, in my experience, to lead to the personal attacks starting again.

There have been numerous personal attacks on me, on my blog and on the Cox forums -calling me a liar, COINTELPRO, a shill and so on, so it is fair to point this out - and to question why these attacks are being made. It is also fair to question why people are still insisting that it was a power surge - which may cause a small electrical explosion but does not DOES NOT I REPEAT DOES NOT cause people to be torn to pieces and killed.

If you had stepped over body parts and come out covered in other peole's blood to escape from a ruined carriage full of smoke, dust and debris, screaming and dying people, you would, I expect, find such assertions as Antagonist's that there was no bomb objectionable in the extreme.

I do not recall myself and the police specifically discussing suicide bombers, just 'the bomber', and 'the bomb'. They took my statement, for several hours, & only then confirmed the location of the bomb - which I had drawn for them in a diagram of the carriage by the second set of doors before we started the statement-taking process. I was by the first set of doors. They then confirmed that my diagram was entirely correct to the best of their knowledge. You must remember at this time the police were still recovering bodies and the carriage was still 70 feet underground with the centre blown out and the roof collapsed.

Since that day, a dozen carriage one passengers have also confirmed the location of the bomb , and placed themselves on a diagram of the train that we have in the group, and told their stories. I am thus able to compare my recollections and experiences with theors, and with those from the other 5 carriages.

I am entirely sure where I was, and where the bomber was.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Testimony re. the bomb on the bus Reply with quote

I work in the BMA building. When I heard the blast and looked out of the window the sight was shocking. My colleagues and I were going to go down to help, but the fire alarms went off and we were evacuated. I left via the fire exit with the smell of burning flesh getting more and more intense as I got closer to the ground floor. As I got to the ground floor there were people laying in the reception area covered in blood. When I stepped outside the first thing I saw was a body laying on the ground to my left. It was unrecognisable - just a heap of bloody flesh. My thoughts are with everyone that has been affected by this tragedy.
Toni Poole, Dagenham, UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4659237.stm


I am a doctor and was one of the very first people on to the scene of the Woburn Street bus explosion. The carnage was devastating and the image will stay with me forever. Once I overcame my initial shock, I started trying to help the survivors along with the few other members of public there. Once the paramedics arrived, we had medical supplies available to patch people up as best as we could before they were rushed to hospital. This has been the most horrific experience of my life and hope I never ever see anything like this again. I do not understand how the murderers responsible for these atrocities can justify them in the name of their God. We must get London going again so that their attempts to terrorize us are in vain.
Julia Phillips, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4663769.stm

I witnessed the bomb ripping the crowded bus to pieces as I got stuck in traffic just behind it, and watched the bus go past me moments earlier with all of its people having no idea of their fate. I wish to express my deepest sorrow for all those who suffered in such a sad way. Be at peace, there is much love for you here.
Spencer Ede, London England http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4667343.stm

Iwas on the bus in front of the bus that got blown up in Tavistock Square. I was just about to get off the bus and set off walking to work as we were not moving and I heard an almighty bang coming from the rear of the bus. I looked out of the rear window of my bus to see the bus behind us (around 60 yards away) explode and its roof fly off. There was dust everywhere in the air, people screaming and crying, and just carnage everywhere. I got off the bus I was on and ran in the opposite direction, some people were stood gawking at the bus, oblivious to the fact there may have been a further bomb on our bus. It was like something out of a disaster movie.
John Aspinall, Crouch End, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4667343.stm

I was unable to get on the bus that exploded so I and three others got on the one in front. Downstairs was busy so we went upstairs, the front was busy, so we went to very back. There was a lady sitting on the long seat and she said something like "don't know why you got on this bus, it ain't going anywhere". I turned to answer her and the bus behind us exploded before my eyes. I have never in my life been so frightened - the noise, that noise was horrible. I saw the bus shake, I saw the top collapse or at least I thought it had. I saw people standing up or at least I thought I did!

Then the top of our bus became hysterical, people were screaming and I remember being pushed down the stairs. I remember thinking, don't trip Laraine whatever you do don't trip. Next thing I knew we were out on the street again running away from the scene. I did look back for a second but somebody pulled me along with them. I felt I should have gone back to help but I was so very frightened. I work in Moorgate and my train from Winchmore Hill was diverted into Kings X.

I will never forget that noise and may those dear people that died rest in peace. I am sorry, I do not have any pictures although I was holding my mobile phone - the pictures are still too real and clear in my head. I don't think what I have written helps you but maybe it helps me. I am alive, I couldn't get on that fated bus. Time heals they say?
Laraine Gordon, London, England http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4659237.stm


What a difference a few seconds makes! I was walking down Upper Woburn place after making a few phone calls as the tubes were out, while making my calls a few buses pasted me as I was stationary outside St Pancras Church. I initially walked with the flow of traffic and people, luckily I decided to go the long way around Tavistock Square and crossed the street in front of the BMA building to get away from the heavy traffic. Barely 20 secs into my diversion the No.30 bus that I had past while crossing the street exploded. I am very lucky as the blast force did not come in my direction but towards the BMA building which was evident as the there was now blood streaked across the side of the building. The Police, Fire service where there within a minute. I saw two body's in the street and scattered debris everywhere. On Friday I forced myself to do everything I was going to do Thursday morning jumped of the tube and buses with out any change to my routine as thousands of others did with pride from my city. London what a city, we will never be terrorised by weak minded, brain washed fools.
Mark Wignall, Euston, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4659237.stm

More eyewitness accounts of the bus
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4662515.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1524452,00.htm

I hope these harrowing accounts affect people who still claim it was part of an 'exercise' - it was a real bomb.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Between King's Cross and Russell Square Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:
I am not going to get into the numbers of the trains. There was one bombed Piccadilly line train. How do I know? Because I know 100 people who were on it, or who boarded it to rescue survivors straight after the blast occurred. Going into the number sof the trains tends, in my experience, to lead to the personal attacks starting again.


The tunnel is 820m long. The layout of the track is important. Starting 70m from the King's Cross platform is the trailing crossover, a piece of track that joins the eastbound and westbound tracks. It is 115m long and is constructed as a wide diameter tunnel.

Weaselbitch was in the 5th carriage of train 331:

Quote:
When I got to the Picadilly Line platform London Underground were announcing delays on that line too, and you could tell. The platform was packed. I decided to make my way to the other end because it’s usually slightly less crowded down there. I just managed to squeeze onto the train in the second to last carriage. From what I’ve read/heard I think the bomb must have gone off in either the first or the third carriage from the front.

The train departed as normal. When I was describing it to thessalian and dodgyhoodoo last night I said we were about 30 seconds out of Kings Cross. The reports I’ve read since say it was 3 minutes, so all I can really say now is that it was “not long”. I was reading an article in the paper about London winning the bid to host the 2012 Olympics.

Suddenly there was an almighty bang, the train stopped, all the lights went out and the carriage was filled with thick, dark grey smoke.
...
One of the main reasons I think we were quite slow getting to the point of deciding to smash one of the windows is that we were in a very narrow tunnel. There was about a maximum of a foot's clearance on either side between the train and the curved tunnel wall. If we'd got outside the train we would have had to make our way along the side of the train propped up between the train and the tunnel wall. We didn't know about the fork in tunnel up ahead. I think this would have been where the people who'd smashed their window and climbed out came from.

http://weaselbitch.livejournal.com/30911.html


At least part of the 5th carriage was in narrow tunnel. This puts the rear of train 331 much closer to the KXSP platform than the 100m often stated. If the whole of the 6th and half of the 5th carriage were in narrow tunnel, then the rear of train 331 would have been only about 45m from the platform.

In addition, the front of train 331 would have been in wide tunnel. Any explosion in either the first or third carriage would not have been as destructive as the explosion in train 311 in narrow tunnel up ahead.

Joe Orr places the front of train 311 about 440m from King's Cross.

Quote:
...start running towards Russell Square down the left hand side of the track to try to get help. I look at the 100metre measurements along the track to see how far it is to Russell Square - about 380 metres.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15721675&method=full&siteid=9 4762&headline=7-7--war-on-britain--my-leg---where-s-my-leg---name_page .html

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Bus Survivors Reply with quote

Accounts by bus survivors have been hard to find. Here are three.

1. Louise Barry

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1414201.htm

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2005_08_07/sto ry_1467.asp

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1697279,00.html
Published: July 17, 2005 Author: Maurice Chittenden

A victim has told the Princess Royal how she survived two bomb attacks
in London in less than an hour. Louise Barry, 29, was evacuated from an
Underground train hit by an explosion at Edgware Road station. She then
boarded the bus that was blown apart in Tavistock Square. When Princess
Anne was visiting victims of the terror attacks in University College
hospital last week, she suggested that Barry might not remember much.
Barry replied: “Unfortunately, I remember all of it.” The marketing
executive, who was born in Sydney but now works in London, suffered a
fractured neck, a puncture ...

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:hvIdJ_mRkV4J:www.libertyforum.org/
showarticles.php%3FFormat%3Dfull%26Placement%3D%26Type%3D%26
Startat%3D0%26Total%3D100+%22Louise+BArry%22+%2B+%22Kings+
Cross%22&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=18&client=firefox

2,3 Tania Calabrese and Tony Cancellara

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/10/nafter 110.xml

Any more?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Between King's Cross and Russell Square Reply with quote

numeral wrote:
Rachel wrote:
I am not going to get into the numbers of the trains. There was one bombed Piccadilly line train. How do I know? Because I know 100 people who were on it, or who boarded it to rescue survivors straight after the blast occurred. Going into the number sof the trains tends, in my experience, to lead to the personal attacks starting again.


The tunnel is 820m long. The layout of the track is important. Starting 70m from the King's Cross platform is the trailing crossover, a piece of track that joins the eastbound and westbound tracks. It is 115m long and is constructed as a wide diameter tunnel.

Weaselbitch was in the 5th carriage of train 331:

Quote:
When I got to the Picadilly Line platform London Underground were announcing delays on that line too, and you could tell. The platform was packed. I decided to make my way to the other end because it’s usually slightly less crowded down there. I just managed to squeeze onto the train in the second to last carriage. From what I’ve read/heard I think the bomb must have gone off in either the first or the third carriage from the front.

The train departed as normal. When I was describing it to thessalian and dodgyhoodoo last night I said we were about 30 seconds out of Kings Cross. The reports I’ve read since say it was 3 minutes, so all I can really say now is that it was “not long”. I was reading an article in the paper about London winning the bid to host the 2012 Olympics.

Suddenly there was an almighty bang, the train stopped, all the lights went out and the carriage was filled with thick, dark grey smoke.
...
One of the main reasons I think we were quite slow getting to the point of deciding to smash one of the windows is that we were in a very narrow tunnel. There was about a maximum of a foot's clearance on either side between the train and the curved tunnel wall. If we'd got outside the train we would have had to make our way along the side of the train propped up between the train and the tunnel wall. We didn't know about the fork in tunnel up ahead. I think this would have been where the people who'd smashed their window and climbed out came from.

http://weaselbitch.livejournal.com/30911.html


At least part of the 5th carriage was in narrow tunnel. This puts the rear of train 331 much closer to the KXSP platform than the 100m often stated. If the whole of the 6th and half of the 5th carriage were in narrow tunnel, then the rear of train 331 would have been only about 45m from the platform.

In addition, the front of train 331 would have been in wide tunnel. Any explosion in either the first or third carriage would not have been as destructive as the explosion in train 311 in narrow tunnel up ahead.

Joe Orr places the front of train 311 about 440m from King's Cross.

Quote:
...start running towards Russell Square down the left hand side of the track to try to get help. I look at the 100metre measurements along the track to see how far it is to Russell Square - about 380 metres.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15721675&method=full&siteid=9 4762&headline=7-7--war-on-britain--my-leg---where-s-my-leg---name_page .html



Weaselbitch and Joe were both on the same train as me: the one that was bombed. You can read Weselbitch's account of meeting me and the other survivors WHO WERE ALL ON THE SAME TRAIN on her blog!

There was ONLY ONE train that was bombed.

I do wish you would all grasp this fundemental point.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Between King's Cross and Russell Square Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:

Weaselbitch and Joe were both on the same train as me: the one that was bombed. You can read Weselbitch's account of meeting me and the other survivors WHO WERE ALL ON THE SAME TRAIN on her blog!

There was ONLY ONE train that was bombed.

I do wish you would all grasp this fundemental point.


The fundamental point to grasp is that the front of the train that weaselbitch was on must have been in the wide diameter tunnel of the crossover.

The front of the train that Joe Orr was on was in narrow diameter tunnel.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Conspiracy debunkers Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:
Ally wrote:


I've still see no proof those guys from Leeds blew themselves up, Khan seems to be the dodgy one in the pack however the fake Luton photo of the 4 accused is evidence of a frame up. The warning issued to the Israeli embassy was shadier than a gypsy roofer.
Do you think they blew themselves up?

Do you have to use such racist turns of phrase, Ally?


That's a bit rich, you are the one getting splashed all over the tabloids calling people 'Islamofacists' when really those guys from Leeds have been framed by our sick government.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Ally, I have been in one tabloid, once, ( The Sun, 7th jan 2006, 6 months after 7.7.05) as part of the Kings Cross United awareness strategy to let passengers know we existed. In that piece I did not use the term Islamofacism once. I have never, in fact, used it in any of my writing for the media. The Sun piece was successful; 7 new passengers found the group as a result, which was the whole point of the piece.

On the other hand, saying 'shadier than a gypsy roofer' is indisputably racist.

I am quite happy to explain my use of the phrase 'Islamofacism' to you.

'Islamofacism' is a phrase that is used to distance terrorist-political-extremism masquerading as Islam from Islam itself. Islam is a noble and ancient religion based on social justice and submission to Allah, one God and Mohammed as his messenger. Islamofacism is a political ideaology which cloaks itself in religion: I use the phrase here to try and show that I recognise a huge difference between Islam and the politics of terror.

I am not racist and I don't think you will be able to afind evidence to back up your false assertions of me of being racist . Still, it is encouraging that you are now engageing with me as the person you saw in the Sun on January 7th - do I take it that you now accept I exist, that I am a real person and a real passenger? And not a 'shill', whatever that is, that you keep accusing me of, Ally?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:
Still, it is encouraging that you are now engageing with me as the person


No I'm not.


And if you mates hadn't destroyed Cox's forum on two occassions then I would be able to quote the many times you used racist language like Islamofascist against those patsy's from Leeds.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Numeral - there was only one train. The front of the train was in a narrow tunnel, and this contributed to the severity of the casualities sustained.

Passengers further down the train talk of how narrow it was, but some in some carriages were able though to get out because it was a wider tunnel and they walked along the westbound track to escape, not back along the eastbound track. Some passengers had to evacuate into other carriages first to escape because the tunnel wall was too close to their carriage doors to be able to escape.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:
Ally, If you are inferring that I am hacking the Cox forum, I am not.

I have got absolutely nothing to do with it. I do not know anything about it and I do not know anybody who knows anything about it and I do not know why you keep accusing me of being a 'shill' or a hacker. I am neither. Why do you fling out such baseless accusations?

I do not work for the Government. I am a normal person, I have a normal job in a normal office and I am getting sick of this. I am requesting politely that you drop this and stop making accusations which are not true. It is completely out of order, frankly. Please stop it.


Easy now

Agreed. Unless posters can prove or provide credible evidence to support such suspicions, they are IMO best left unsaid.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ally wrote:
Rachel wrote:
Still, it is encouraging that you are now engageing with me as the person


No I'm not.


And if you mates hadn't destroyed Cox's forum on two occassions then I would be able to quote the many times you used racist language like Islamofascist against those patsy's from Leeds.


Ally.

I do not know what is going on with Cox's foruum it is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with me nor do I have any knowledge of it at all, I have told you this, and I am telling you again to stop making wild accusations now.


It is accepted by the public, the police, and hence by me, one of the passengers, that those 4 men bombed the train and bus. I have accepted this information, it makes sense, I accept the evidence I have seen to support it, and it is not racist to accept it.

The fact that you do not accept it for whatever reason - I note that you have NOT proviuded any justification or reason for not accepting it - and I will read anything you say with interest - does not, I am afraid, give you any reason to call me a racist or a hacker.

Hurling abuse at people who happen to accept the mainstream and accepted version of events, which has been supported by evidence, is NOT acceptable. You diagree with me, you don't explain why, you call me a racist and accuse me of sabotaging a forum, without any basis in fact.

That's just not acceptable Ally. So stop it please.

ian neal wrote:
ian neal wrote:
insidejob wrote:
Rachel from north London could indeed exist. She could wittingly or unwittingly allow spooks to use her name
and

Ally wrote:
My tuppence on Rachel is there is more than 1 person behind her writing. I don't know why but I feel like a male wrote much of her stuff on Cox's forum. No proof like, just a hunch.


Hi good people

As I say here I have followed Rachel's postings on u75 boards. She is a real person as demonstrated by her meeting with several of the regular posters on u75. My advice is unless you can prove she is a spook (nigh impossible) I would steer clear of suggesting as much on public bulletin boards. Such musings could be portrayed as callous smeering against an innocent victim etc. and will antagonise undecided readers who will dismiss such speculation as insensitive.


Morning

I repeat the advice I give above. If anyone can prove Rachel is a spook etc, let's see some hard evidence otherwise let's avoid personal attacks based on 'suspicions' and keep the discourse focussed on issues and evidence and respect people's right to disagree. If Rachel's testimony or evidence clashes with other accounts or evidence then it is entirely reasonable to address this (that is focussing on the evidence) but it is quite a leap to then assume she must therefore be a spook.

I have seen too many divisions created within the 9/11 movement (especially in the US) where people are accused of being cointelpro or spooks based on v poor or circumstantial evidence. That's not to say spooks, etc have not and are not infilitrating this movement but my advice is if you suspect someone is not on the level, take your concerns directly to them and in private and only when you reckon you have a compelling case should those suspicions be put out into the public realm.

The other point I would make is that all are welcome on this forum assuming they are supportive of the call for a further inquiry into 9/11. There are many other places on the web for 9/11 truth campaigners and their opponents to argue/discuss stuff with each other. There may even be a case for establishing another forum moderated by 9/11 truth campaigners precisely for that purpose
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've changed your story more times than the Met Police.

Last edited by Ally on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian neal wrote:
Rachel wrote:
Ally, If you are inferring that I am hacking the Cox forum, I am not.

I have got absolutely nothing to do with it. I do not know anything about it and I do not know anybody who knows anything about it and I do not know why you keep accusing me of being a 'shill' or a hacker. I am neither. Why do you fling out such baseless accusations?

I do not work for the Government. I am a normal person, I have a normal job in a normal office and I am getting sick of this. I am requesting politely that you drop this and stop making accusations which are not true. It is completely out of order, frankly. Please stop it.


Easy now

Agreed. Unless posters can prove or provide credible evidence to support such suspicions, they are IMO best left unsaid.


I'm not making accusations, I'm using semantics to illuminate the manipultive tactics being used by Rachel against people who don't believe what the government have told them about 7/7.
If you wait four years until you start organising a movement to illustrate these lies it will be going nowhere fast.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another witness to the bus explosion, a young woman, Richmal Oates-Whitehead (February 1970–August 2005) who was an employee of the British Medical Association. who told just ONE story of the bus explosion, and has since been found dead in her home:
Quote:
After the bombings, one of which took place outside the BMA headquarters, she gave an interview to New Zealand papers. She described how she had been tending the injured in a makeshift hospital next to the BMA building when two firemen approached her for help because they were cutting two badly injured people out of the wreckage. The firemen supposedly said that they would understand if she felt unable to assist.

"There was no room for hesitation - I wasn't thinking at that level. It was the moral and ethical thing to do," she said, before going on to describe how police then carried out a controlled explosion on a second suspect bomb. Scotland Yard, however, said there was no record of a second, controlled explosion at Tavistock Square.

Quote:
The article then describes a controlled detonation of a second bomb.
"Outside, there was another enormous bang as police detonated the 'bomb' -- which turned out to be a false alarm."

Quote:
Following apprehensions from her family members, the Police entered her flat in West London on 17 August and found her dead body. Initially it was felt that she might have committed suicide due to the possible media witch hunt and loss of job leading to humiliation and the extreme step. However, Post-mortem reports suggested that she died of Pulmonary embolism or clotting of blood on the lungs. The Coroner’s office also ruled out an inquest as the death was due to natural causes

From the Hampsetad & Highgate Express 17th Feb 2006:
Quote:
PC Walker, 26, described how he had to board the bus and become suspicious about a microwave box[ that was on the lower deck. He said: "I saw the microwave box on the left hand side of the (?) and it just seemed strange that it was there. At that point we just weren't going to take any chance."

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last time: Please cease the personal abuse and attacks.


I came on a thread - about me - to answer questions - which is fair enough - and I asked that people could refrain from personal attacks - which is also fair enough - and Ian Neale has also asked that personal attacks are avoided - especially unsubstantiated ones - and you are still doing it. I have not asked for people to be banned. I don't knwwo where you get all this from.



I am however asking you to stop making unwarranted, evidence-free personal attacks.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:



I am however asking you to stop making unwarranted, evidence-free personal attacks.

Thanks.


Like the ones you make against the leeds patsy's?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prole wrote:
Another witness to the bus explosion, a young woman, Richmal Oates-Whitehead (February 1970–August 2005) who was an employee of the British Medical Association. who told just ONE story of the bus explosion, and has since been found dead in her home:
Quote:
After the bombings, one of which took place outside the BMA headquarters, she gave an interview to New Zealand papers. She described how she had been tending the injured in a makeshift hospital next to the BMA building when two firemen approached her for help because they were cutting two badly injured people out of the wreckage. The firemen supposedly said that they would understand if she felt unable to assist.

"There was no room for hesitation - I wasn't thinking at that level. It was the moral and ethical thing to do," she said, before going on to describe how police then carried out a controlled explosion on a second suspect bomb. Scotland Yard, however, said there was no record of a second, controlled explosion at Tavistock Square.

Quote:
The article then describes a controlled detonation of a second bomb.
"Outside, there was another enormous bang as police detonated the 'bomb' -- which turned out to be a false alarm."

Quote:
Following apprehensions from her family members, the Police entered her flat in West London on 17 August and found her dead body. Initially it was felt that she might have committed suicide due to the possible media witch hunt and loss of job leading to humiliation and the extreme step. However, Post-mortem reports suggested that she died of Pulmonary embolism or clotting of blood on the lungs. The Coroner’s office also ruled out an inquest as the death was due to natural causes

From the Hampsetad & Highgate Express 17th Feb 2006:
Quote:
PC Walker, 26, described how he had to board the bus and become suspicious about a microwave box[ that was on the lower deck. He said: "I saw the microwave box on the left hand side of the (?) and it just seemed strange that it was there. At that point we just weren't going to take any chance."


I read the story of Richmal, who it is reported died of natural causes; she seems to have had a sad and lonely life and she did suffer from a borderline personality disorder. It was suggested that she killed herself as a result of her lies about her heriosm and her job beign found out but it tuened out that she had a medical condition, possibly exaserpated by stress, there was a feature on her story in New Woman magazine recently called 'LIAR LIAR' about how Richmal's life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmal_Oates-Whitehead
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/28/ndo ctor28.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/28/ixhome.htmlhttp://www.guardian.co.u k/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1558598,00.html
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/author/story.cfm?a_id=100&ObjectID=10342653


Her story is certainly sad, but it doesn't convince me of any conspiracy - lots of people saw the bus explode and I have met people who were passengers on it - they are all still alive anbd haven't been bumped off, if that is what you are inferring.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prole wrote:
Another witness to the bus explosion, a young woman, Richmal Oates-Whitehead (February 1970–August 2005) who was an employee of the British Medical Association. who told just ONE story of the bus explosion, and has since been found dead in her home


Maybe she killed herself because she felt bad about lying to people and helping the government cover up its sick crimes?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prole wrote:







Pity the poor b****** that has to write the narrative in time for All Fool's Day.


What people on the bus?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ally wrote:
Rachel wrote:



I am however asking you to stop making unwarranted, evidence-free personal attacks.

Thanks.


Like the ones you make against the leeds patsy's?

Please stop threatening me with meaningless accusations.


I am not threatening you; since when does politely asking someone to stop making personal attacks constitute a threat?

This is me asking you again: please stop making personal attacks. I have asked you several times and so has one of the moderators ( if Ian Neale is a moderator) .

I disagree with your theory - which you have not backed up with any reasoning as to why you think the Leeds men were' patsy's' ( sic) - and I have been called a 'shill', 'vacous' ( sic) , a 'hacker', f'riends of hackers', 'manipulative' 'repetitive', racist' 'a racialist' and a 'joke'. and accused of changing my story


I am and I assert it her again, a 35 year old woman who works in a normal office, who is called rachel, who does not work for the Government, who happened to be travelling on the Piccadilly line train in carriage one when it was bombed, who has since gone on to found a survivor group and to write about the expereince of the day on behalf of myself and on behalf of , and at the request of, other passengers. This is all verifiable - unlike your accusations.

If you get banned it will be nothing to do with me, you will have brought it on your self by repeatedly attacking someone with baseless accusations and insults: I have not asked for you to be banned, and I don't mind reiterating that as well.

Can you just stop the personal attacks, Ally?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ally wrote:
Prole wrote:
Another witness to the bus explosion, a young woman, Richmal Oates-Whitehead (February 1970–August 2005) who was an employee of the British Medical Association. who told just ONE story of the bus explosion, and has since been found dead in her home


Maybe she killed herself because she felt bad about lying to people and helping the government cover up its sick crimes?


Evidence for this assertion, Ally?

She seems to have died of natural causes, possibly exaserpated by stress - she did tell lies, but they were about her role in the BMA and her role on the day as a hero - so, once again, you are making quite nasty, and evidence-free accusations. There is no evidence that it was suicide.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ally wrote:
Prole wrote:







Pity the poor b****** that has to write the narrative in time for All Fool's Day.


What people on the bus?


Yes, in the photo the bus seems to have been evacuated of its passengers on the top deck, doesn't it? So what?
Are you now saying that the bus was not bombed and id not contain any passengers? I refer you to Numeral's post and my posts a few pages back containing lots of witness statements fom people who saw the bus explode, tended the injured or who were on it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Rachel Wow you are fast with your replies. Let me make something clear, I avoid 'inferring' things, I just let the facts speak for themselves.
BTW, I can see how people would be suspicious of you as you always take and quote the 'official' line. You never share anyone's concern with the lack of evidence, which is what drives people like myself and others into questioning what we are told.
Is there really no doubt in your mind?
As for the term 'Islamofascism', where do you think it comes from? and if it isn't a slur on Islam, then why do we not talk of 'Judaeofascism' or 'Christofascism'? Whose purpose does this term serve?
Quote:
Some critics view it as an oxymoron and a rhetorical device or propaganda. Juan Cole, professor of modern Middle East and South Asian history at the University of Michigan regards the term "Islamofascism" as offensive and tantamount to hate speech, because, he argues, it is a desecration that is profoundly insulting to Muslims.
"It is hard to see the difference between the bigotry of anti-Semitism as an evil and the bigotry that [Michael] Medved displays toward Islam. It is more offensive than I can say for him to use the word "Islamo-fascist." Islam is a sacred term to 1.3 billion people in the world. It enshrines their highest ideals. To combine it with the word "fascist" in one phrase is a desecration and a form of hate speech. Are there Muslims who are fascists? Sure. But there is no Islamic fascism, since "Islam" has to do with the highest ideals of the religion. In the same way, there have been lots of Christian fascists, but to speak of Christo-Fascism is just offensive."

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have explained why I used the term,

Rachel wrote:
I am quite happy to explain my use of the phrase 'Islamofacism' to you.

'Islamofacism' is a phrase that is used to distance terrorist-political-extremism masquerading as Islam from Islam itself. Islam is a noble and ancient religion based on social justice and submission to Allah, one God and Mohammed as his messenger. Islamofacism is a political ideaology which cloaks itself in religion: I use the phrase here to try and show that I recognise a huge difference between Islam and the politics of terror.



If people have a problem with it then I'll change it but I am trying to show the DIFFERENCE between Islam and terrorism and I think phrases like Islamic terrorism is damaging - terrorism is not Islamic - hence the term Islamofacism to try to show that this is a political ideaology pretending to be Islamic. It ios me trying to protect Islam from the slur of terrorism !

If allegedly Christian groups were planning on committing murder, terror, then yes, I'd probably call them 'Christianofacist' or similar, in fact if you were talking about a hard right Chritian group bombing abortion clinics, I'd call them Chritianofacist. Does that make it cleaer? I also said this earlier in response to a similar post you made to me asking a similar question.... hang on, will try and find it...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rachel wrote:
@ Numeral - there was only one train. The front of the train was in a narrow tunnel, and this contributed to the severity of the casualities sustained.

Passengers further down the train talk of how narrow it was, but some in some carriages were able though to get out because it was a wider tunnel and they walked along the westbound track to escape, not back along the eastbound track. Some passengers had to evacuate into other carriages first to escape because the tunnel wall was too close to their carriage doors to be able to escape.


Weaselbitch in the fifth carriage clearly states that they were in a narrow tunnel with the crossover up ahead. The crossover is long enough to hold a whole train. The front carriage of the train weaselbitch was on must therefore have been in the wide tunnel of the crossover.

To escape weaselbitch went forward, then through the crossover and down the eastbound track to King's Cross:

weaselbitch wrote:
Someone passed tissues around. The black soot was getting everywhere. Messages were being passed up and down the train by shouting from carriage to carriage. We ascertained that the people in the rear carriage couldn’t get out through the back, so that was one potential escape route blocked.

Shortly after that the guy next to me, who had stuck his head out through the crack in the doors said, “There are people out there!” They said they’d smashed a window and climbed out. Someone asked them to smash ours, but we decided against it – we wanted the glass going out, not in coming in. A little bit later one of the windows further up our carriage got smashed (I don’t know whether in or out). Someone near us had a tool bag with him, so we were going to use those to smash our windows when we heard that they were evacuating the train. The message we got was that a “man in a uniform” had forced a door open and people were leaving.

We eventually started filing along the train. We were near a fork in the tunnel, so we walked up through the train past the fork, then back through the tunnel along the other part of the fork towards Kings Cross. Someone up ahead held his mobile phone up to take a picture. I think that may well be the one that’s been all over the news. At this point I wished I’d brought my camera. I’ve never walked along the inside of a tube train tunnel before (and probably never will again). We were helped up onto the platform by underground staff and informed there would be water and medical assistance waiting upstairs. By the time I got there all the water was gone.

http://weaselbitch.livejournal.com/30911.html


Passeners on 331 did not get the back door open. The escape route was via the crossover and the eastbound tunnel. On 311 passengers did break open the back door. Most were too concerned about getting electrocuted to leave the train but three did. When these three got to King's Cross the platforms had been evacuated. They met some LUL or BTP staff on the escalators, who asked them where they had come from. The reply came -- there is another train down there. King's Cross had no idea that 311 was there.

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