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Jon Ronson 9/11 Truth hatchet job
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Ally
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Jon Ronson 9/11 Truth hatchet job Reply with quote

Manages to avoid it being placed in the Guardian's Comments section.

'We rationalists are the oppressed minority'

Jon Ronson
Saturday November 4, 2006
The Guardian


I've been getting a lot of emails from people who believe 9/11 was an inside job. They say shadowy forces behind the Bush administration brought down the Twin Towers with controlled explosions. I log on to the British 9/11 Truth Campaign forum to see why they believe what they do. I introduce myself. Within minutes, posters are warning other posters not to trust me.

"Ronson's strings are being pulled," somebody writes. "You can bet there is a Zionist agenda somewhere in what he does." Another poster adds that my Zionist overlords and I don't only control the media, we also control "the money supply" and "everything else as well". And it was us "Zionists" who orchestrated 9/11.

I tell them to stop being anti-semitic.
"I don't see any references to Judaism in this thread, Jon," comes the instant reply. "So what is your rationale for making this comment?"

"Hahaha, bless your soul, Jon," someone adds. "Playing the old religion card, huh? Don't try that one here, mate. It's cheap, pathetic and disgusting."

I feel battered by the relentlessness of their insults. "I'm not going back there again. Horrible, patronising, codeword-using anti-semitic b******," I eventually think. "They're so irrational. They sit behind their computers all day, pontificating away, getting their 'facts' from YouTube. They probably all look like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons."

I pause, stare out of the window, and clean my glasses. "They're indicative of a whole New Irrationality sweeping the land," I think. "Yes, that's it. This is a cultural shift I'm identifying. Nowadays everyone's either a conspiracy theorist or a believer in mysticism or the paranormal or a religious zealot. What's happened to the enlightenment? Where is our voice? Nowadays, we rationalists are the oppressed minority."

I stare out of the window a bit more. Then I have a very significant thought: "It is time for rational, sceptical people like me to get off the fence and make ourselves known. It is time for us to be publicly and assertively rational."

I'm serious. And I know how to do it. I determine that, from this moment forth, whenever I meet someone with irrational beliefs, I'll patiently take the time to sit them down and point out to them why the things they believe are nutty and stupid.

"They'll probably be hostile to begin with," I think, "but they'll thank me in the end."

As a first step I buy Richard Dawkins's new book, The God Delusion. By page 67 I'm almost certain God doesn't exist. Dawkins argues that it's perfectly acceptable for us to exclude vicars from all intellectual debate and essentially be militant atheists, laughing in the faces of people who believe in things.

"Harsh," I think as I read, "but perhaps a necessary antidote for these irrational times."

Dawkins and I are the same. He's unshackled himself from any lily-livered residual respect for vicars. He doesn't buy the rose-tinted "country vicar coming round for tea" thing. He basically thinks vicars are no different to those 9/11 anti-semite lunatics. They're all part of the same problem.

"I really ought to feel derision for vicars, too," I think as I read. "And I will!"

After being racially abused by those 9/11 conspiracy theorists, it feels good to belong to a club of like-minded rationalists. And so it is that I leave the house on the hunt for irrational people to whom I can benevolently point out the error of their ways.

To be continued ...

· A collection of Jon Ronson's Guardian articles, Out Of The Ordinary: True Tales Of Everyday Craziness, is in the shops

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1937479,00.html


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Andrew Johnson
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup - pretty light on facts.

Here is the link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1937479,00.html

Also, let's not forget this:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=12467#12467

He never contacted me.
=============
I PM'd him on his own forum (http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/index.php), but it's never been collected (still in my outbox)
================
From: AndrewJohnson
To: jon ronson
Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:29 pm
Subject: Quick Msg
Jon,

I haven't signed up here to cause trouble. I just wanted to offer you DVD's if you can't get them any more easily.

I don't know if you are a member of the NUJ, but I believe quite a few DVD's were sent to members sometime ago. If you want DVD copies of:

Loose Change 2
9/11 Eyewitness
Jimmy Walter's Confronting the Evidence
Steve Jones USVC Lecture

Let me know, I'd be happy to send them along. However, all of these are available on Google VIdeo (I think).

It does rather irritate me when people are rude on the forums, it really doesn't help in debating evidence. I too have been accused of various things for rejecting the OCT (Official Conspiracy Theory) of 9/11 - suggesting that I work for Arabs, or (in a slightly different context) that I have a mentality similar to the Yorkshire Ripper. It's OK - it was only my brother that said that!!

There has been 1 article in the Daily Mail (Tony Rennell) last year about Ian Henshall and Rowland Morgan's book

http://www.financialoutrage.org.uk/911_mainstream_media.htm

Annie Machon and I had letters published in the Observer in April:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1754549,00.html

following the "Charlie Sheen Affair" (still ongoing). When David and Annie came to Derby in December last year, the local paper did a pretty good job of covering our event (we filled the cinema - probably thanks to the article).

http://www.checktheevidence.com/911/Derby%20Evening%20Telegraph%2009-D ec-2005.pdf

I'm still trying to work out where you are originally from. I'm from Skipton originally, "migrated" to Derbyshire now though. Must be the limestone or summat.

All the best

Andrew

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Rabbie McM
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to think Jon Ronson's "newspaper" was founded in 1821 as a response to the Peterloo massacre of peaceful demonstrators by a govt cavalry unit.

Their present lack of principle for standing up for the truth in this context is even more shameful. But then their circulation figures will be speaking for themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward_Taylor

http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/peterloo.htm
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1306&postdays=0&postor der=asc&start=0&sid=8dd67ee84afdd8edf303b795b9b11d8b

here is jons itinerary for november, i'm sure if any of us were to turn up he would be happy to sit down with us and point out how nutty and stupid we are.

we'll thank him in the end....

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he's a bit sensitive is jon int he?

Quote:
They probably all look like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.

obviously someone really got to him!

seriously though. The next someone like ron jonson comes to the forum, lets try and keep the insults down. There's really no need for it. It just gives them a good excuse to write articles like this.

There is a rational case for the governments involvement in 9/11, lets not make things difficult for ourselves. (ie. comments which could be percieved as anti-sematic, holograms, 'you're a shill' etc..)

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Stefan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When he logged on here, how many of you attempted to enlighten him as to the facts in a calm and rational manner, and how many of you simply insulted him for not thinking the same thing you do?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rabbie McM wrote:
And to think Jon Ronson's "newspaper" was founded in 1821 as a response to the Peterloo massacre of peaceful demonstrators by a govt cavalry unit.

Their present lack of principle for standing up for the truth in this context is even more shameful. But then their circulation figures will be speaking for themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward_Taylor

http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/peterloo.htm


good stuff, don't think history is Jon's strong point, as for labelling people irrational for not believing a 'caveman' done 911, deary me.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing 'rationalist' about Ronson at all. His assertion that belief in the 'controlled demolition' of the World Trade Centres is delusional is based on one of the following:

1) An inability to face ugly and frightening facts.
2) A cowardly refusal to consider the science that PROVES the CD case.
3) A primary concern with his own, rather than our collective wellbeing.
4) Some sort of conditioned instinct or inability to entertain ideas that might force him to engage with subject matter that is taboo for Jews.

If he were a genuine individual and his previous contributions to this forum were to be believed then he would have seriously looked at the scientific evidence for controlled demolition and come back and put us right on this issue. It is clear from the fact that neither he nor anyone else has presented any serious and reasonable rebuttal of the evidence, that there is (unhappily) only one conclusion we can come to about the WTC's on 9/11.

Jon, here is a serious article from a brave Jewish writer:


Here is a documentary from a brave Jewish fim-maker:

"Editted by Ian Neal to remove Holocaust "Revision" documentary and article"

Neither is Richard Dawkins really a 'rationalist'. Behind his 'rationalism' is a belief system as unprovable as any God-dased faith. He makes universal judgements about the meaning and purpose of life that cannot be proven to be , as for any serious Christian or Muslim, anything other than subjective.

By the way, Ronson refers to us in his article as 'b*stards'. I seem to remeber people being very polite to him......but his problem is that because some of us mentioned the role of Zionism in 9/11...we are a bunch of anti-semites (he says so today). We cannot stop Jewish people being ever-so-willing to leap to this conclusion but I have my own opinion about who is rational and who is not....and who is honest and who is not.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the whole David Cole film in one piece.

"Editted by Ian Neal to remove link"
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
By the way, Ronson refers to us in his article as 'b*stards'. I seem to remeber people being very polite to him......but his problem is that because some of us mentioned the role of Zionism in 9/11...we are a bunch of anti-semites (he says so today). We cannot stop Jewish people being ever-so-willing to leap to this conclusion but I have my own opinion about who is rational and who is not....and who is honest and who is not.

They must be scared if they are playing their trump card. It is people like Ronson who keep mentioning Jews and anti-semeticism seeking to bring the big bad bogy man into the argument, and thereby hoping to silence opponents of the official fairy tale. It won't work. The hands of Zionists are all over the 9/11 mass murder and if they want to make out it is all Jews, then they will be the ones responsible for any escalation of blame from the relatively few Zionists to all of Judaism. I hate Bush and his politics but I do NOT hate all Americans and recognise the difference between the actions of a few powerful, evil people and that of a whole nation. Ronson is seeking to bury any questioning of 9/11 and that means only one thing - he knows there is something to hide. But then again, as most Americans are coming to realize, the slightest consideration of the events of that day and the subsequent behaviour of the US government show that it was an inside job. He knows it as well as we do, as do all the "critics" posting here.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trawling back through that thread and looking for the posts where he was insulted. OK.

Mason-free party said this:

Quote:
Ronson's strings are being pulled by the 'berg' mafia[Lundberg] so you can bet there is a zionist agenda somewhere in what he does like most of the zionist television bs we have to suffer.


Abandoned Ego said this:

Quote:
Hahaha, bless your soul Jon.

Playing the old religion card huh ?

Dont try that one here mate. Its cheap, pathetic and disgusting. Its actually a typical Bilderburg ( for Bilderburgs read Freemasonic gathering ) tactic.

And YES, you did play it first. Illuminated indeed.

Meanwhile, How about going back to what you claim to be good at.

Can you check out the US Social Security Death Index. And tell us all how many of the passengers on those 4 fated Airplanes are listed ?

Or perhaps you might do some real investigative journalism, and ask yourself how it is that 7 of the 'hijackers' on those planes happen to be alive and well ?

I'll forgive you the science bit. You obviously arent a scientist either.


kbo234 said this (as part of a longer post):

Quote:
Zionism is the tool they have been using since its conception in the late 1800's to advance their interests and expand their powers. Their aim is a One-World government controlled by them. They use Zionism against the interests of the world and also against the interests of Jews. Most Jews have, in my opinion, been suckered into unconditionally supporting Israel. The Jews have been used. They have too often accepted the money and swallowed the pill. The state of Israel is likely to develop into the Jews' greatest disaster. Its purpose is to create the division that forments a final disatrous World war that will leave the desperate remnants of humanity crying out for a solution. The bankers will be ready with their answer.

This is the plan Jon. The evidence is written down. The previous two world wars fulfilled their objectives. The first destroyed the German and Ottoman Empires. The second destroyed the British Empire. The world is moving ever more quickly towards a single banker's Empire. At this point Zionism will be history and so, probably, will you and I.


Then Justin said this (as part of a longer post):

Quote:
The world's media is largely controlled by Zionists - if that wasn't true we would have heard long ago about NETUREI KARTA and other orthodox Jewish groups who are against Zionism and who passionately oppose the creation of Israel and who wholeheartedly support the Palestinians in their struggle for justice. And by the way Jon, the unfurling news coming from Israel and the Lebanon is entirely contrived and a lot of innocent people are being taken in as they side with one or other of the two sides when, ultimately, they are being controlled and manipulated by the same global elite.


Then kbo234 says this (as part of a longer post):

Quote:
If Zionists control the money supply, which they do, then they can control everthing else as well. People get their money from them. They choose who will be rich and who won't.
I have a mortgage. The bank own my house. They can crash the market, send interest rates soaring and grab it if they want. When I have paid them off it is mine. This will probably happen shortly before I die. I will leave the house to others who will sell it then the bank own the house again. The majority shareholders in all the big banks are the Rothschilds/Rockerfeller/Warburg/Schiff/ Morgans etc. These people are known to be pushing for a one world government. The are using Zionism to promote this agenda.

If you want some evidence that Zionists control the media, WATCH THE NEWS. Israel is always the victim. You never hear a word about a 'Zionist agenda'. The most significant fact of political life...who creates our money.....is a non-issue. 911 was carried out by 19 guys with Stanley knives working for a mastermind in a cave in Afghanistan.

People making these programmes don't actually have to be Zionists themselves. They know what they can and can't say. Why, for instance, has no TV station shown, let alone discussed, the collapse of WTC7? It was a fairly significant event wasn't it? The stations have been bombarded with 9/11 DVD's, letters etc. They certainly know all about it.


Then dh says this:

Quote:
I'd agree with Justin's comments elsewhere that events going on in the ME are an entree to the opening phase of the final showdown. This could easily go nuclear
It's hardly surprising if the meek and humble acting Ronson should start to play a part here
He has the capacity to behave as a shill with regards to the intellectual, left-leaning and liberal parts of the population. You give Jon Henry Makow, he'll use it against you
Handle with care
God, this guy is paranoid


At this point Jon Ronson resigns.

Then dh says this:

Quote:
Well, good riddance I say Ian
If it was him, and I like him like most others here, but I suspect him
He was only here for nefarious purposes without a doubt
In his piece on Icke did you hear his remark about the crew mentioning the jews
I love his staring at goats piece, but here his like is very dangerous
He is a complete clever know-it-all slimy goatf**ker
There's a good self-deprecating quote for him to use at some point
If we've scared him off all to the good
Hey Ronson, we dont take kindly to your type around hyur - South Park
Good night and god Bless


Then Alkmyst says this:

Quote:
Hey Jon-Boy, how about linking your comment in to this thread so that your illustrious readers can see for themselves how you elect to ignore any question which might impact upon your elective view of reality?

You then re-appear as soon as the term 'Zionist' appears in the thread ... and immediately cast unjustifiable and indefensible aspersions of anti-semitism.

Your tactics speak volumes... although it would seem as though you are still studying ADL 101.


Things then calm down a bit and Ronson decides to return. After a little while of reasonable debate, Mason-free weighs in with this:

Quote:
eh Ronson...who pulled your strings to set up Alex Jones /Bohemian Grove and was Alex supposed to get that far into the Grove or was that a zionist c*** up?


Then Brian writes:

Quote:
jonronson writes -

"As I say, I am not inclined to believe 9/11 was an inside job, but I'm not trying to stop anyone from investigating it. Maybe I'll investigate it one day."

May I ask what you are actually doing here?

Believing or not believing something so important and world changing should not be a matter of inclination.

Perhaps it would be better for all concerned if you were to investigate the subject before tying up peoples time with frankly ill thought through questions.

"Maybe I'll investigate it one day." you say.

Well bully for you - meanwhile the world is going to hell and its being perpatrated on the basis of the Sept 11 lie.

Time is of the essence.


At this point Ronson gets terminably fed up and tries to leave. Then he returns to say:

Quote:
Okay, this is my very last post. I don't want to be like one of those ageing rockers always coming back for farewell tours.

I come to your site. I ask two questions about 9/11. I am serious about hearing the answers. And, on both occasions, these questions are met with a barrage of "How juvenile!" "How ill-informed!" etc etc.
Do you do that with everyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe?
And you wonder why people won't meet you or listen to your arguments?
But Timmy G, those are interesting points. I will look those up.


Then Mason-free says:

Quote:
has Ronson got it yet or still living a zionist lie?


Followed by:

Quote:
Maybe i am being provocative Ian but until these idiots wake up in television who without doubt have an Israel bias and continue to dodge the 911 truth then i shall keep having a dig until they show responsibility in reporting the unbiased facts.
We all know also the * masons are also hand in glove with Israel,one of the main aims of freemasonry is to rebuild Solomons temple and cause a bloody massive war in the process...Solomon temple freaks the lot of them...lets not beat about the bush because until people realise the zionist/masonic connection nothing will change


Reading and reflecting through all that it becomes apparent that mason-free was the worst culprit, and dh and Alkymyst don't do this site any favours in this thread.

But in the end it was Mason-free who immediately started ranting about Zionism and turned the thread ugly, which led to Ronson leaving and now this hatchet job in the Guardian.

I'm Jewish and would have reacted in a pretty similar way myself if I wasn't already convinced by the 9-11 arguments here. Mason-free's rantings look anti-Semitic even to me and I'm prepared to accept that certain Zionist forces, along with other powers may well have been behind 9-11.

Oh and Alkmyst's 'Jon-boy' could so easily read as 'Jew-boy'. Believe me. It was gratuitous and incredibly rude.

But back to the original point of this post; a terrible mistake was made in this thread. Jon Ronson was prepared to debate, and he became disgusted when the argument quickly turned to rabid anti-Zionism and he came under a barrage of insults. I don't blame him for leaving - he may well have stayed if the rabid anti-Zionism had been kept out of the argument.

I understand he still hasn't replied to Andrew Johnson, which is disappointing. I think he should, as he promised he would. But I also think Mason-free should be invited back to account for him/herself and be prepared to face the fact that his/her comments have had a very damaging effect on this site.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did have a conversation with Jon Ronson recently when I visited his forum here:

http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1410&start=195&postday s=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

(from 1/3rd of the way down the linked page)

I had about 5 pages of decent thread conversation with the members over there. The thread has since gone back into the usual non-serious reactions from people, but I did put some solid information across, and from the page views the thread recieved over those few days, I am confident the links were followed up by more than a few people

Its disapointing that Jon has not been able to take any of the reasoned arguments on board, though equally I don't as such expect more from him. However, I see no harm in now bringing the thread I posted on the the forum's attention, especially as I am sure this latest peice by Ronson will inspire some members to take a journey over there:

Where I sincerely hope all such members will be able to keep in mind that their comments, especially on Ronson's forum, will be seen as representative of the movement as a whole

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry that Jon Ronson retired from the debate, but having stated our belief that 9/11 was an inside job the obvious next question is , "Who did it?"

I do not believe that the average Jew had any more to do with 9/11 than I did but the 'Zionist' fingerprints ARE all over 9/11.

Many of us on this site have spent some time trying to work out the meaning, significance and history of the Zionism and its role in 911.
I have come to the conclusion that the great money powers have adopted Zionism AS A TOOL to use against us all, inluding Jews. It is clear that Hitler was financed by the promoters of Zionism. The reason seems to be that this would assist in the creation of the state of Israel. Israel itself is being used to create the divisions in the world that will lead us into a final cataclysm which is intended to leave the world exhausted and broken and willing to put itself into the hands of these money powers which will then control the whole earth. This is the big picture.

(Remember that the Rothschilds, who started this process, enjoyed only a small local influence with Prince William of Hanau in southern Germany in 1760....See how far they and their allies have come since then!!!)

All this is VERY BAD for the Jews themselves. They, more than anyone have fallen victim to the manipulations and lies of the money powers.

It might look like heartless anti-semitism to place a Holocaust-denying documentary in this thread (all the more powerful for being made by a Jew) but I really believe that it is vital for us all that Jews WAKE UP about 9/11, the Holocaust and all the rest.

Jews have traditionally played a leading role in all human rights, political and revolutionary movements. Jews are the most spiritual of people. They think, they believe, they act on their belief. At this time in history, however, they are a most misled and deceived people (although this can be said about us all). If the Jews wake up and realise what has been done to them by the people who sold them Zionism then there will be much more hope for us all, that we can extricate ourselves from the nightmare in which we currently find ourselves.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What did everybody expect?

Regardless of what you and I might think of him, the guy has a weekly column in a national newspaper magazine which will be read by hundreds of thousands of Guardian readers. He turns up on our doorstep to find out guage what we are about and gets savaged. He is hardly going to write lovingly of his visit, is he!

The only surprise to me is that it took him three and a half months for it to get in his column which suggests to me that he has three and a half months worth of copy in credit - thus can sit on his backside without having to make much of an effort to make his crust.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tumbongo wrote:
http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1306&postdays=0&postor der=asc&start=0&sid=8dd67ee84afdd8edf303b795b9b11d8b

here is jons itinerary for november, i'm sure if any of us were to turn up he would be happy to sit down with us and point out how nutty and stupid we are.

we'll thank him in the end....


Only if you do so politely and with respect
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps folk could, in a Fathers for Justice way, turn up dressed as Comic Book Guy (Jeff Albertson) from The Simpsons.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbo234 wrote:
I am sorry that Jon Ronson retired from the debate, but having stated our belief that 9/11 was an inside job the obvious next question is , "Who did it?"

I do not believe that the average Jew had any more to do with 9/11 than I did but the 'Zionist' fingerprints ARE all over 9/11.

Many of us on this site have spent some time trying to work out the meaning, significance and history of the Zionism and its role in 911.
I have come to the conclusion that the great money powers have adopted Zionism AS A TOOL to use against us all, inluding Jews. It is clear that Hitler was financed by the promoters of Zionism. The reason seems to be that this would assist in the creation of the state of Israel. Israel itself is being used to create the divisions in the world that will lead us into a final cataclysm which is intended to leave the world exhausted and broken and willing to put itself into the hands of these money powers which will then control the whole earth. This is the big picture.

(Remember that the Rothschilds, who started this process, enjoyed only a small local influence with Prince William of Hanau in southern Germany in 1760....See how far they and their allies have come since then!!!)

All this is VERY BAD for the Jews themselves. They, more than anyone have fallen victim to the manipulations and lies of the money powers.

It might look like heartless anti-semitism to place a Holocaust-denying documentary in this thread (all the more powerful for being made by a Jew) but I really believe that it is vital for us all that Jews WAKE UP about 9/11, the Holocaust and all the rest.

Jews have traditionally played a leading role in all human rights, political and revolutionary movements. Jews are the most spiritual of people. They think, they believe, they act on their belief. At this time in history, however, they are a most misled and deceived people (although this can be said about us all). If the Jews wake up and realise what has been done to them by the people who sold them Zionism then there will be much more hope for us all, that we can extricate ourselves from the nightmare in which we currently find ourselves.


I'm sorry but there's so much in your post above that comes across as anti-Semitic. I think you have to much more careful in what you write.

'Zionist fingerprints' sounds anti-Semitic because of the image immediately evoked of creepy people fingering money or whatever - a common anti-Semitic stereotype.

'All this is VERY BAD for the Jews themselves. They, more than anyone have fallen victim to the manipulations and lies of the money powers.'

This also sounds anti-Semitic. Don't ask me why, it just does.

'...but I really believe that it is vital for us all that Jews WAKE UP about 9/11, the Holocaust and all the rest.'

It's vital for everybody to wake up, not primarily or just Jews. Putting it the way you just did sounds very patronising.

'Jews are the most spiritual of people. They think, they believe, they act on their belief.'

Now you're being patronising again but in the opposite way. Jews aren't 'the most spiritual of people'. They don't 'think, believe or act on their belief' any more than anybody else. They aren't a mass of people who all behave in the same way - they are individuals just like everybody else. There are thick Jews, bright Jews, educated Jews, uneducated Jews, open-minded Jews, bigoted Jews, religious Jews, agnostic Jews, aetheistic Jews. Bad Jews, good Jews, in-the-middle Jews. Please don't make these sweeping generalisations - they are racist. Whether you mean to be or not.

You've got to either keep off this subject or find another way of saying it. Frankly I think it would be better if you kept off the subject altogether and stick to discussion of 9-11 and how the buildings might have come down, stuff like that, because every time you start talking about Jewish issues you begin to sound gratuitously anti-Semitic.

I say this as an anti-Zionist Jew who has no qualms about speaking out about Zionism and the evils of the Israeli far-right. I'm also well aware that most Israelis have little idea of the evils perpetrated in the name of Zionism in the late 40's, and I'm prepared to accept that some of the Zionists may have collaborated with the Nazis to ensure themselves a homeland.

But you also have to realise that the Israeli far-right would never have got this far if America hadn't continued to support them in everything they do at the expense of the Palestinians. America does this for strategic reasons - because the Middle East is a rich source of oil and because it suits them very well to have a US-friendly, nuclear-armed country right there in the Middle East. If there was no oil there I very much doubt America would have given Israel this support, and Israel would have had to become a shared land long ago.

Oh and while on the subject I also happen to believe that a shared homeland is the only way forward. There are also some Israelis who hold this view but whenever they attempt to negotiate with the Palestinians, agents of the far-right conspire to stop them.

So please get real and save your blanket criticisms for the far-right, in whatever guise it turns up.

Suspecta


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i pretty much sympathise with ronson and understand his stance on this one .. im not talking about his overall stance lets get that straight.

i read that thread develop in real time and ronson was lept on like a pack of cats to a rat. thats no way to convince someone of your pov - tantamount to me debating with a Christian and them pasting massive quotes of the bible at my face - im obviously going to ignore them and conclude rather quickly they are mad and deranged.

Ronson's experience says more about what he calls 'them' than himself. They - in this case the likely bunch of regular 9/11 truth uk forumers are a parody of themselves and need to seriously grow out of their own delusions and stop fanboying around 9/11 like its the new fad.

Rationalism is something i hold very true to heart and i always position myself between the two extremes of the alternative and the mainstream - veering slightly to the alternative hence my presence in these circles.

Too many people spend their lives in the box of the alternative and criticise those who spend their lives trapped in the mainstream - when in effect they are both guilty of the same singular blindness ... how can there ever be a reconciliation or coming together with this kind of herd mentality on both sides

opposames as icke would call it in a way.

ronson has his issues - he is cowardly and pathetic in a public schoolboy brattish sense and he is pretty closed minded despite his exposure to alternative ideas... but then thats his choice. If he wants to inquire about 9/11 truth then good on him - at least he made the effort. He should have been welcomed and understood as a sceptic with an interest - not hounded .
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, this is a classic "ad hominem" attack.

Instead of attacking and criticising our arguments, he is criticising us personally. That is because it is easier to attack us personally and call us crazy than to attack the arguments.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon ,how can we respect you when you show no respect for the evidence...a national journalist has the responsibility to discriminate fact from fiction...you fail miserably on all counts and the only reason you're still in a job is because you play the piper's tune,you value your job and wealth more than the truth...basically you're a little sh-it who should know better so quit ya whinging and do some 911 research for once ...not that it needs much researching when the truth is staring you in the face like it did our US General friend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsn4JA450iA
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suspecta
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mason-free party wrote:
Jon ,how can we respect you when you show no respect for the evidence...a national journalist has the responsibility to discriminate fact from fiction...you fail miserably on all counts and the only reason you're still in a job is because you play the piper's tune,you value your job and wealth more than the truth...basically you're a little sh-it who should know better so quit ya whinging and do some 911 research for once ...not that it needs much researching when the truth is staring you in the face like it did our US General friend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsn4JA450iA


Jon Ronson has just quoted you in the Guardian and told the world that he was insulted here - primarily by yourself - and you come back and call him a 'little sh-it'?

Have you had a brain transplant or something? For heavens' sake please grow up or go and post somewhere else, not here where there's a national profile and crucial information is disseminated. Or do you want the credibility here to go the way of David Icke's?

You began insulting him as soon as he arrived here and effectively ruined what could have become a very good, constructive debate. I don't actually blame Ronson for leaving after the treatment he got here from the likes of yourself.

Please do some serious thinking and realise what potential for real damage your ill-considered comments have had.

Suspecta
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbo234 wrote:
It might look like heartless anti-semitism to place a Holocaust-denying documentary in this thread (all the more powerful for being made by a Jew) but I really believe that it is vital for us all that Jews WAKE UP about 9/11, the Holocaust and all the rest.


OK a little update on this forum's moderation.

Up to date it has been a group of 5 (SuperAdmin (sleeping partner), JHR (who rarely posts but does a lot of the IT), myself, Andrew Johnson, Tony Gosling) and soon to join John White. It has been agreed that as our traffic has increased and attracted criticism, our capacity to moderate in line with the forum's principles has to be increased and hopefully following discussions this will now be the case. There will be a new more interventionist approach to moderation on the forum until hopefully everyone is familiar with where the boundaries lie and respects them. The ultimate test of posts will increasingly be: 'is it in the interests of the campaign'

Users will notice that posters who consistently break the forum's principles and guidance as described in the about us section will just find they are no longer welcome, their posts removed and their accounts deleted. Censorship? If you say. You can go set up another forum to tell the world about it.

Those of you who follow my posts and how I look to shape this forum and will know the following

No personal abuse, name calling, etc. This includes calling Mr Ronson a shill and a little *

No discussion of 'off topic subjects' this includes holocaust revision/denial. Discussion of these and other non-9/11 related subjects can be discussed on illusionsforum or elsewhere.

No posts that are (or would be considered by many to be) anti-semitic or racist will not be tolerated. This includes discussion of 'holocaust revision'. I know some here believe genuinely that the accepted story is untrue in some important respects. I don't care. The site's rules are clear. Go discuss it elsewhere.

The campaign does not endorse any one view amongst its supporters of 9/11 truth. There is no party line regarding the various controversies within the movement and all opinions as long as they are respectfully expressed are welcome. If anyone is interested I believe the most effective presentation of the evidence currently out there is Press for Truth, but this does not make me a LIHOPer in the LIHOP/MIHOP divide.

This tolerance works both ways. If the more 'controversial theories' such as no 7x7s are to be tolerated here (and they will be) that tolerance must be reciprocated (and visa versa).

The campaign supports only those who campaign non-violently. Last night I had time to catch up on Ally's posting on another forum. I need not go into detail. Those following the drama will know the details anyway. But just to say those who make violent threats will not be welcome.

Now let's look at Jon Ronson's engagement with this forum which I believe in part will have coloured his view of the movement

I know that the vast majority of those who support this campaign (including all the most well known campaigners) are progressive politically and fundamentally opposed to fascism, neo-nazism, racism and bigotry. I have just banned Jayref and SoG from critics corner because they accused me of being an anti-semite without providing any evidence. Those not familiar should take a look. They are the first people to be banned from this forum, but others will folow unless posters catch on regarding what is allowed and what is not.

Revisit the Ronson thread. See how people posted and reflect on how these posts are perceived. KBO reflect on how your linking to a holocaust revision documentary will appear even as you assure me you are not anti-semitic.

I'll leave it there. This forum can be an amazing space that truly empowers grassroots supporters and breaks the usual politics of a hierarchy dictating a party line to others. But with this freedom comes a responsibility on supporters not to damage the very thing you claim to support. It never ceases to amaze me how some people are so unaware of how their views are perceived by others and how they alienate people who are still unfamiliar with the evidence with their need to educate us about zionism and the holocaust. If you want to know my views on zionism use the search function, my name and select posts

KBO, if you want to 'wake up' jewish people (or anyone else) try showing them Press for Truth rather than holocaust revision films. You might find you get more success.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronson came here to get exactly the article he printed, if he wants to level the whole 911 argument under the auspices of less that 0.2 percent of the people who post here then it speaks volumes. Please consider his relationship with Alex Jones and what has been on the front page of prisonplanet for the last 5 years and ask why he didn't go after him and publicise his films on the subject?

Jon's book THEM is currently being made into a Hollywood film, while the book did reveal much about the PTB is was done under the gaze of eccentrics, what was the sub title of the book again? 'Adventures with Extremists'.
Look at Icke getting stitched up by Brandon Corey recently. Be very interesting to see how Alex Jones and Icke will be potrayed in the film of Them.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why don't we have a simple poll on here :

1] were zionist and US neo-cons behind 911
2]were US neo cons ALONE behind 911 without zionist involvement

Lets see if its just 0.2% of people on this forum who believe there is a zionist agenda in 911...come on lets have the balls to confront the 'zionist' issue or was PNAC a figment of my imagination and Netanyahu's 7/7 London visit pure coincidence?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian neal wrote:
Tumbongo wrote:
http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1306&postdays=0&postor der=asc&start=0&sid=8dd67ee84afdd8edf303b795b9b11d8b

here is jons itinerary for november, i'm sure if any of us were to turn up he would be happy to sit down with us and point out how nutty and stupid we are.

we'll thank him in the end....


Only if you do so politely and with respect


of course..

you catch more flies with honey, that for me is the bottom line when campaigning and trying to convince people. If you respect a person and their intelligence then they are more likely to come round to your way of thinking.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: The road to censorship... Reply with quote

ian neal wrote:
OK a little update on this forum's moderation...

That's wonderful news!

For about three and a half years, up to and including 9th April 2005 - well before this website was launched, a group of activists which included myself, laterly called legion campaigned regularly to get Indymedia UK to stop the censorship of articles which dealt with 9/11. On the 9th of April, a handful of us managed to cripple the Indymedia newswire in protest. Details are archived here:

http://www.flamesong.fsworld.co.uk/imuk/index.html

How gratifying that now that Indymedia UK has finally started to permit discussion about 9/11, a similar regime is being installed here.

I do not condone any acts of racism, anti-Semitism, violence or anything else which offends common decency and as they in fact constitute criminal offences they should be dealt with in an appropriate way.

But to threaten anbody who makes off topic posts in such a headmaster like way truly sounds like Tony Blair dressing down his cabinet! What shall we expect next, pagers?

What you seem to be suggesting is that anybody who wants to talk about anything other than 9/11 should leave the room! There is hardly a forum on the internet which does not have a 'water cooler' type section where people are permitted to discuss stuff which is not necessarily directly related to the forum's primary purpose. I learned the value of such a section myslef when I ran my own forum and never had to ban or censor anyone - apart from spammers advertising cheap East European jewellery!

For the record, I suggested that this might be a solution to the problem of off topic posting back in July (not long after Jon Ronson came to visit) and my suggestion was met with a deafening silence from the forum moderators who, I assume, do bother to read the suggestions posted in Suggestions:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2847

So, might I again suggest this sensible approach before we all start feeling like apparatchiks!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mason-free party wrote:
why don't we have a simple poll on here :

1] were zionist and US neo-cons behind 911
2]were US neo cons ALONE behind 911 without zionist involvement

Lets see if its just 0.2% of people on this forum who believe there is a zionist agenda in 911...come on lets have the balls to confront the 'zionist' issue or was PNAC a figment of my imagination and Netanyahu's 7/7 London visit pure coincidence?


I wasn't trying to isolate you by saying the 0.2 percent but merely reflecting jon focusing on one person's opinions when there are 1140 members.

Quote:
On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attacks would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"


however it was also a good day for British arms manufacturers and right wing military agendas from Australia to Canada.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that is a very good idea flamesong - an off topic lounge area for members to hang out and let theit hair down on 9/11 issues - but i suppose they can do that in illusions (the forum linked in my sig)

i think this place is meant to be about 9/11.

but single issues can often be boring and repetitive so such a chill out zone might be a nice idea regardless.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst I dislike people making ad hominem attacks, they tend to go in cycles.

One would hope that a journalist would be able to take labelling and name calling along with points of evidence and write a fair and balanced article.

It would have been easy for him to write something like:

"Opinions ranged from:"

<insert MFP's quote>

to

<ADJ's quote>

He could have used the same number of words to do this. However, he did not choose to write the article like this. It is therefore incomplete and unbalanced and we need not worry because we have the evidence to show that he used posts selectively (even though they may have been unneccesarily unpleasant). The media aren't going to represent us fairly and it would've been easy for trolls to sign up and post similar comments to the negative ones (but yes, we did it ourselves - but then, that's freedom of speech for you isn't it? You can't have it both ways - sorry folks...)

"Now is the the time to take NOTHING personally" as the Hopi Indian Elders have said.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll start a petition...

Done. Please make your feelings known:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=5286
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