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Amnesty will not shift from the official version

 
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David WJ Sherlock
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Amnesty will not shift from the official version Reply with quote

I have resigned my position as an active member with Amnesty International. The problem with AI is that there is no room for debate. AI is currently running a campaign on the War on Terror, but is not willing to look at the evidence regarding the attacks on 9/11. their general consensus is that Arabs hijacked those planes and what we say is interesting, but cannot be right. I had an email back from our chairman, where he says, "Alas we are servants of AI and cannot deviate from the materials supplied to us on which to campaign. Your own information whilst interesting cannot form part of our official activity". This view as far as I am concerned is blinkered.

I would like to refer back to an email exchange I had with the member who is running the War on Terror campaign'

To Patrick

As a member of the 9/11 truth movement. I like the rest of the movement believe it was an inside job. Please see attached.

The bigger mystery of the day, was the collapse of building 7 which was not hit by any planes. Now it could be implied that even our own national news outlet. (The BBC) are complicit in the dupe. A news reporter in New York is reporting on the day of the attack, regarding the collapse of building 7. WTC 7 collapsed later in the day approx eight hours later. We see the reporter live from NY reporting the collapse (Nothing odd there you may think). The problem is, WCT is still standing there behind her in shot. How does that work. Bear in mind what she is saying.

See the report here:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/270207trustanything. htm

What do you think?

Dave.

The Reply:

David,

I believe that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare's plays, I believe the Great Fire of London was accidentally started in a baker's shop and not by catholics, I believe Hitler killed himself and did not disappear to South America, I believe that Elvis Presley is dead, I believe Princess Diana was killed because of a car accident in which the driver had been drinking and was driving too fast and the passengers were not wearing seat belts,I believe that Jesus Christ was crucified,died and rose again on the third day and the Da Vinci Code is piffle and I believe that the Twin Towers were destroyed by arab terrorists to the complete horror of the USA government and the rest of the world. So you can see that I am not interested in conspiracy theories.

What I am interested in, is doing what I can,within Amnesty, to defend human rights against the awful consequences of the so called 'War on Terror' . The success of Amnesty's work depends on careful collection and validation of evidence of human rights abuses and the preparation of accurate and well balanced reports and campaigns ,which can command the respect of a wide group of people. For Amnesty to involve itself in conspiracy theories would undermine the whole work of the organisation.

The conspiracy theories obviously are your interest, but not mine, so please take me off your circulation list. I am interested in matters which have a direct connection with the work of the Bromley AI group and hope you will keep in touch on that.

With best wishes,

Patrick
Although polite. This reply is implying the "conspiracy nut scenario". Yet he believes the official report.

I tried to get them to help with the Aaron James case a few months ago. Aaron was a victim of racial profiling on an NWA flight. http://www.aaronjamesstory.com/ and other individuals in need of help. They refused outright. Telling me "they do not take on individual cases".

See the email exchange between me and the chairman:

Dear Neville

I am withdrawing my support from AI. I have approached AI on several occasions regarding individuals in need of support and have been rejected every time. I was told "We do not get involved with individual cases". I feel it is important that I clarify, this is not as a result of anyone from the Bromley group (well at least the majority) . However, I am concerned regarding the "War on Terror campaign and the view overall. I have been a researcher in this field for many years now, and firmly believe, AI is flawed in it's view on terror. While I believe and support the fervor in which the local members run campaigns. I believe, that the official line is setting president. My political views will inevitably clash with those in the group. The evidence is overwhelming to point to government complicity in carrying out the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks. If we do not know why the terror attacks are carried out by Secret services and the Criminal elite that run our governments, then we can only be deceived. I think it is a good thing that you help others in their plight and only hope this kind of campaign gather momentum. Scanning through the AI information, I do not see AI focusing on matters at home. Our civil liberties are fast being eroded. I have tried to bring these matters it the attention of AI but with no success. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=RNLXJQZQVCNF1QFI QMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/27/ncrime327.xml This article is chilling to say the least, and is straight from Orwell. I have presented Patrick so much evidence regarding the research at nineeleven.co.uk and all our other media networks. With 80% of the American population questioning the official version of 9/11 and more people in Britain suspicious of the official version regarding 7/7/2005 London bombings, overwhelming evidence of the criminal elite in the USA administration. and the empire building by us and the USA admin. I have to wonder, how the man who is running the campaign on Terror and Freedom can really be effective without the facts.
He requested that I do not send him anymore information.

The reply:

Dear Dave

Thanks. We shall be sorry to lose your support and enthusiasm. Alas we are servants of AI and cannot deviate from the materials supplied to us on which to campaign. Your own information whilst interesting cannot form part of our official activity and I understan.d your need to withdraw as a esult.

I hope at some point we may be back in touch as our shared passion for human rights continues

Best wishes and thanks for all you have done.

Neville
"We are servants" Sheep!
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flamesong
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a really sad situation.

I have never been a member of Amnesty International but I have supported them over the years in many ways and vividly recall leaflets which detailed accounts of how certain named political prisoners were being treated - so it comes as a bit of a surprise to read that they do not get involved with individual cases.

That statement, along with the classic we are servants of AI and cannot deviate from the materials supplied to us on which to campaign, speaks volumes about what they have become.

If only they had half the conscience of the prisoners whose causes they espouse (albeit on a non-individual basis).
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Stefan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He should have outlined his poition more clearly:

Quote:
I believe that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare's plays, I believe the Great Fire of London was accidentally started in a baker's shop and not by catholics, I believe Hitler killed himself and did not disappear to South America, I believe that Elvis Presley is dead, I believe Princess Diana was killed because of a car accident in which the driver had been drinking and was driving too fast and the passengers were not wearing seat belts,I believe that Jesus Christ was crucified,died and rose again on the third day and the Da Vinci Code is piffle, I believe that jet fuel can melt steel, I believe that fanatical muslims can suspend the laws of physics, I believe that aluminium glows orange when molten, I believe that the dozens of people who heard pre collapse explosives were lying, I believe the two people caught in them and their subsequent sever injuries were simulated in a shed with some fireworks, I believe the FDR of AA77 is lying to us and the government is telling us the truth, I believe that ejections of dust smoke and debris 16 metres in length are "puffs of dust", I believe that asymentrical damage and a little fire to a building can make it collapse veritically at free fall (but only when it's the NY headquarters of the SS and CIA), I believe the put options were a coincidence, as were the war games, I believe the cops at the citgo station can't tell left from right, I believe that downward pressure can caugh huge sections of steel weighing 60,000 pounds horizontally hundreds of feet through the air with such force they harpoon into nearby buildings, therefore I believe believe that the Twin Towers were destroyed by arab terrorists to the complete horror of the USA government and the rest of the world.


Yes. That's reasonable.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NWOWATCH - It really is sad when good people will not even check the evidence or even allow themselves to to think about looking, I have had similar conversations with people I know that belong to the Socialist Worker lot who do good work but trying to engage them about the 911 stuff is like banging your head on a wall.

I went over to a woman and spoke to her about the troops and how I could help but she just told me that "we argue with the 911 conspiracy theorists", so I asked her if she had checked out any of the evidence and she replied "no" and just mumbled about George Monbiot who as we know is a gatekeeper with vested interests. Cant these people see that they are not striking the root?

Good on you for making a stand, do you think AI has been "took"? Or do they see the 911 Truth Movement as a threat in some way?

Al

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James C
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare's plays, I believe the Great Fire of London was accidentally started in a baker's shop and not by catholics, I believe Hitler killed himself and did not disappear to South America, I believe that Elvis Presley is dead, I believe Princess Diana was killed because of a car accident in which the driver had been drinking and was driving too fast and the passengers were not wearing seat belts,I believe that Jesus Christ was crucified,died and rose again on the third day and the Da Vinci Code is piffle and I believe that the Twin Towers were destroyed by arab terrorists to the complete horror of the USA government and the rest of the world. So you can see that I am not interested in conspiracy theories.


Isn't it amazing that people can believe what was written in a book that concerns a story which happened 2000 years ago and yet cannot see beyond the spin of a recent event. If one can believe that Jesus did rise again then it is not unreasonable to accept that the neo-cons carried out 9/11. I just don't get this kind of logic.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James C wrote:
... I just don't get this kind of logic.



It isn't logic.

I believe that Christ was the true Messiah. That His spirit was one with God the creator, that He rose from the dead and was seen by his disciples as the scriptures describe.

I also believe 9/11 was an inside job. This second belief is based on physical evidence and logic.


The religious belief is based on another much more personal kind of evidence. Such faith is not illogical IMO but neither is it based on logic.

See:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7323105779374559629&q=khosro w%27s+journey+muslim+jesus

Khosrow's journey illustrates one type of foundation for faith well.
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James C
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbo234 wrote:
James C wrote:
... I just don't get this kind of logic.



It isn't logic.

I believe that Christ was the true Messiah. That His spirit was one with God the creator, that He rose from the dead and was seen by his disciples as the scriptures describe.

I also believe 9/11 was an inside job. This second belief is based on physical evidence and logic.


The religious belief is based on another much more personal kind of evidence. Such faith is not illogical IMO but neither is it based on logic.

See:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7323105779374559629&q=khosro w%27s+journey+muslim+jesus

Khosrow's journey illustrates one type of foundation for faith well.


Religion is dangerous and should be banned. It is the scurge of all mankind and proves just how dumb we are. Do you not watch Louis Theroux?

I suggest everyone should read 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins. He proves just how absurd the whole scriptures thing is.

I'm sick and tired of listening to religious claptrap.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James C wrote:

Religion is dangerous and should be banned. It is the scurge of all mankind and proves just how dumb we are. Do you not watch Louis Theroux?

I suggest everyone should read 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins. He proves just how absurd the whole scriptures thing is.

I'm sick and tired of listening to religious claptrap.


There are plenty of religious/spiritual people who are anything but dumb.

IMO Richard dawkins is a shallow a****ole who does not seem to recognise that he himself is promoting a religion......a false one, by the way.

Yours,
another Mr. Dumb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are people of many faiths who are 9/11 skeptics and there are evidently many who are agnostic and atheist.

There have been attempts to create division across various axes - faith amongst them. I think the question of the individual's faith here is not that he believes in a divine God but that he does so with faith and yet seems not to have the capacity (or, more likely, will) to analyse evidence.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
IMO Richard dawkins is a shallow a****ole who does not seem to recognise that he himself is promoting a religion......a false one, by the way.

I must agree with this one. The most negative and debasing of all the religions to date. The one that allows them to get away with it while creating something to fill the empty vacuum of the soul
And I would never describe myself as a christian or other faith

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbo234 and James C

Dear Colleagues,
Let us not argue about religion.
The issue which unites us is the lies we were told on 911 and 7/7 and the things Blair and Bush have done to the world as a result.
Let us unite behind one common cause.
We must not argue about religion or politics because whoever we are, we are the only people that remain in this country who are trying to spread the truth and expose Bush/Blair and the lies.
BBC, Murdoch, every politician has betrayed us and lies to us daily.
So please lets not argue ablout religion fellow truthers.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
IMO Richard dawkins is a shallow a****ole who does not seem to recognise that he himself is promoting a religion......a false one, by the way.

And people who question the official version of 9/11 are promoting a false story. Now back to sleep and accept any old drivel you are spoonfed. How many people born in to Christianity become Muslims? How many born into a Sikh community become Christians? It is brainwashing no less than the brainwashing the government does to hide its crimes. Dawkins is guilty of nothing more than telling stupid gullible people to stop being gullible. He is no different from most people here who are trying to tell ignorant people to use their discernment to judge what happened on 9/11 rather than accept their master's indoctrination. Religion makes as much sense as astrology or flat-earth belief and to say it is beyond logic (and therefore presumably logic does not count!) is the most facile remark I have read on this forum. Religion is not a belief - it is a wish, a hope and a gamble.
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kbo234
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
... He is no different from most people here who are trying to tell ignorant people to use their discernment to judge what happened on 9/11 rather than accept their master's indoctrination.


No, you are wrong. 9/11 truth is revealed by close analysis of physical evidence that cannot be reasonably denied. The politics, psychology and spirituality of the situation can be deduced from these raw facts (and some knowledge of context).

Belief in some kind of creator or extra-dimensional reality outside our everyday sensory experience (which is what humankind have always been reaching out towards and religions try to elucidate) is a different matter. It is other than physical and little is objectively provable (although some research in the USA on the recollections of patients undergoing brain surgery while their brains are registering zero electrical activity is, some surgeons are arguing, real evidence of consciousness existing outside the physical realm)

The search for meaning and integrity takes many into relationship with 'God', whatever God may be.

For you to reject all religion is one thing. Many do. I have done so myself......but to do it in such an arrogant manner using so many offensive words is to display your own doltishness for all to see.

Some people, believe it or not, have direct and extraordinary experiences that convince them of the existence of a God that connects us all. I have had such experiences myself....and your calling me a fool makes you a fool in my eyes. You are pronouncing on things you clearly know nothing about.

If you want to criticise the actions of organised religions or their followers...fine. There is nothing worse than bad religion and people will, in reaching for the good, get it badly wrong. That's inevitable. We all do this all the time....but this does not invalidate the quest itself....which is what religion is to the believer. Atheism is a religion that rests on the assumption that there is no God. This is as vulnerable to ridicule as any other faith, with the possible exception of Scientology (is this the time for a joke?).


Last edited by kbo234 on Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios69 wrote:
kbo234 and James C

Dear Colleagues,
Let us not argue about religion.
The issue which unites us is the lies we were told on 911 and 7/7 and the things Blair and Bush have done to the world as a result.
Let us unite behind one common cause.
We must not argue about religion or politics because whoever we are, we are the only people that remain in this country who are trying to spread the truth and expose Bush/Blair and the lies.
BBC, Murdoch, every politician has betrayed us and lies to us daily.
So please lets not argue ablout religion fellow truthers.


Well said stelios69
We must put up a united front if we are ever to defeat Blair the Liar's plans for us and our children.
Let's not divide our voices unneccesarily..it's gonna be a tough enough battle as it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbo234 wrote:
No, you are wrong.

What was that bit about me being arrogant?

Everything you say in defence of the irrational could be used to justify astrology, the fear of the number 13, or of any number of superstitions. To say Atheism is itself a religion is another piece of sophistry used by the superstitious to justify their nonsense and attempt to drag non-believers into their own web of irrational thought. Atheism is not a religion but the eschewing of religion. Because I do not fear the number 13 does not mean I have a superstitious belief that the number thirteen is not to be feared, it means I am not superstitious. It makes as much sense as implying that those who do not believe that 9/11 was committed by Arab terrorists therefore know exactly what happened on 9/11, as indeed critics are fond of demanding from us the explanation of all anomalies as if we should know. It is possible to see a point of view as being obvious nonsense without having to have an alternative explanation. The fact you have taken my very general comments so personally and retorted by calling me names suggests your own beliefs are not very firmly held. Personally I have no religious beliefs whatever, and that is NOT my religion, although I have an unshakeable confidence in them.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Handbags alert I feel.

Chill guys, another time hey. Today we have more presing issues like an impending attack on Iran.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pastomen wrote:
Handbags alert I feel.

Clevershite alert I feel!

Quote:
Chill guys, another time hey. Today we have more presing issues like an impending attack on Iran.

I am "chilled". Nothing I just posted will affect the impending attack on Iran.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2p worth:

NWOWATCH, well done for taking a stand. Amnesty is probably too much of an establishment body to get to grips with the implications of 911 truth.

Re: organised religion and Dawkins

To use an Ickeism, they are oppo-sames in my view. Both equally flawed faith-based (ie not founded in reason) ways of viewing the world. Dawkins is a purveyor of an extremist, reductionist and materialist view of life which reduces humanity to an accidental biproduct of complex matter.

One of his supposed big ideas is that "life is a virus". WOW! Give him a Nobel Prize for contributing precisely nothing to our understanding of life, there.

I dare say he is correct on many relatively trivial things but his treatement of religious/spiritual ideas is in my view just as unhelpful, inaccurate, irrational and closed-minded as many extremist religious people's.

Regarding organised religion, I think the main problem is in the "organisation" of it, ie the dogma, clergy and hierarchy. And I tend to agree that most if not all religions are essentially control memes (to use a Dawkins phrase - that was one of his best ideas).

I am not against spiritual practice or metaphysics, but a glance at history shows the extent to which the good intentionsof religious thinking so often end in human tragedy and carnage.

In my view all major religions have a simple core of truth which is surroundd by vast edifices of dogmatic mumbo jumbo which serve only to confuse and dilute the core message. Not to attack Christians, but by way of example, how many Christians do you know who adhere to the Ten Commandments? Bush/Bliar anyone?

There is in my view only one True religion and that is one which cannot be written.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget the Illuminati. Organised religion has done more damage to this world than anything else.

Racism, homophobia, removal of freedom, hatred of women, slavery, censorship - no, not products of the new world order but systems and doctrines of the christian church, past and present. All in the name of a book which is no doubt a work of fiction. Illogical!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All major spiritual traditions can be boiled down to:

We are all One


+

Love everything



imo

But purveyors and believers like to complicate things and argue over irrelevant details. Hence conflicts (Catholics v Protestants, Sunnis v Shia, etc, etc) and the core message gets overlooked.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blackcat, if you can't see the difference between making a judgement about 9/11 and making one about the existence of God then there is obviously no point in arguing. If you think it is arrogant to insist that that there is a discrete difference between these two kinds of judgements then so be it.

When you angrily and offensively denounce believers for holding their views then you are exhibiting the kind of bigotry that tends to give religionists a bad name.

I am continuing this argument because I think it is important to be clear what our disagreement actually is. That you hate religions is not unusual....there is a great deal to hate them for. I myself was brought up a Catholic but have come to see my church as masonic and therefore satanic at the top. I have a website where I post evidence of this.

At the bottom of the church, however, you find a lot of very genuine people trying to find goodness, love and right relationship with others and the mystery we all find ourselves involved in. I perceive your comments as an attack on these people and this prayerful activity and would like to say that if you want to attack religion you really should be much more specific. If you were, you would probably find the likes of myself agreeing with you.

One more thing......you call for discernment and then call a person (myself) who believes he is trying to exercise it a sophist and a 'clevershite'.

You might be showing how you feel but you surely are not winning any argument.

Actually, the issue at the centre of the argument, faith in the existence of God' is impossible to argue impartially. I believe in God because of what has happened to me at times I did not, did and do believe in God.

Having just read Craig W's argument...that's right. That does say it all......but it can be a hard and painful business getting to the point where you really believe that this is a truthful modus operandi. It can also be difficult separating the beauty and purity of the message of the Gospels from the statements and actions of people walking around calling themselves Christians. Finally even accepting the teaching in full it can be difficult believing that the elements that constitute the story actually took place.

I think most people embrace the ideas in the teaching first and then accept the story that goes with it.

That's what I do.

I think it is worth arguing about the former....but not the latter though.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kbo234 wrote:


I think it is worth arguing about the former....but not the latter though.


Why is it not worth arguing about the latter? Surely it is perfectly possible to educate people about right and wrong and propagate good morals without resorting to discussing miraculous claims about god and christ. Why is it necessary to promote good by talking about our sins and what Jesus did to save our souls?

It seems to me that the latter is the important bit to resolve here because it causes much separation between people of different faiths and therefore tension amongst humans at large. The point blackcat (and Dawkin's) is making is that because the word of god manifests itself in different ways to different religions causing much angst in the meantime, then essentially the promotion of good is not the core issue with religion but instead power and propoganda are. Both are better tools for controlling human beings which has been shown time and time again throughout history. The very fact that the story of Jesus is different between different faiths also suggests that the entire basis for the existense of god rests on unsound and fantastical claims. In other words there is no proof that god exists or that Jesus was as powerful as is claimed. OK, so you say your faith makes the bible true for you but my faith makes it untrue for me and yet I still consider myself to be a good person and understand right from wrong.

My frustration rests on having to cope with religion whether I like it or not. It gets forced down the throat of my kids at school. Politicians use it to bolster their ratings. Every morning I hear religious people on Radio 4 telling me how I should behave. My local community magazine is mostly religious propaganda parading as community news (I live in the country). And yet christianity is meant to be in decline in this country so why do I have to have this bullsh*t rammed into me at every opportunity? Dawkin's rightly makes the point that religion is a minority issue in the UK and the majority could overule it if they so choose.

Education about right and wrong I can handle but being reminded of the bible at every turn really p's me off. Why do religious people believe they hold the moral highground? Are these people not the same as the 9/11 debunkers who put their faith in Bush having not lied to us regardless of whether there are logical irregularities in the official story? I think so.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

I don't want to keep arguing about this. It is not what the forum is for. I took some exception to the language in one of Blackcat's posts and seem to have started a bit of a row.

I don't think I hold the moral high ground nor am I a good person....forgive me quoting the gospels but this issue, too, is somewhere near the heart of the matter.

When Christ asked Peter (I think it was), "What do the people say about me?" Peter replied, "They say you are good, master".

Christ replied,"I am not good. Only God is good".

Christ was an archeytpal human being as well as an actual human being. All the good that was in him, including his impulse to good, was given to him. At least this is how he saw it.

He did not identify with any of the good in himself. To him it was given by God.

Identification with beauty, strength, talent, even goodness is a spititual error that leads to competitiveness, vanity, pride etc and so will neccessarily result in the diminution of others. Only humility before God allows these gifts to serve God in their full beauty and with their full power.

Humans only seem to experience the kind of possession of the soul by God(that was Christ's permanent condition, after his 40 days in the desert), in extreme situations.....during near-death experiences or at moments of utter devastation and need. The guy who founded alcoholics anonymous, Bill Wilson, would be an example of a person who had such an experience. He was an alcoholic, literally in the gutter and at the very end of his tether when 'the light' came to him.....and this kind of thing is much more common than one might expect. Psychiatrists say that one person in four has a powerful spiritual experience sometime during their lifetime. I am grateful to say that I am one of the one-in-four and had I not had my experience at the time it happened I don't believe I could have continued living.

But all this proves nothing.

The fact that powerful people use religion to control and abuse others proves nothing either. They will use anything they possibly can to maintain wealth and control. We all know this.

IMO depriving children of being educated with an awareness of "this bull****" would be to deprive them of the most valuable thing in our culture.

I wouldn't worry too much though. I was working for a couple of days as a supply teacher covering RE lessons (my subject is physics) in a school in Croydon last week. Two year 11 lessons consisted of the classes being asked to watch a Christmas episode of "The Vicar of Dibley". I've never seen this programme before.....it was, from beginning to end an outright attack on Christianity, which was portrayed as irrelevant and too silly to begin to take seriously. The programme actually consisted of a string of filthy jokes centred round the subject of Lesbianism. It started with Dawn French wondering aloud that "If she were a Lesbian, exactly which woman would she like to shag...this progressed to jokes about fanny, minge Rachel Hunter's folding bits and ended with Rachel Hunter coming out of her bedroom with hardly any clothes on, to the great shock of the vicar's visitor.
This was an RE lesson. It seemed to me like a short promotional presentation on behalf of Satan. I'm glad I didn't have to lead the follow-up discussion.

Religion is under attack rather than being increasingly promoted. Good job you might say.......but if you read the documents of the hidden powers, the Illuminati or whatever else you want to call them, you will see that it the aim of these globalists to destroy nation/race, family, religion and democracy....or anything else that binds people and can become a centre of opposition to them. Read Adam Weishaupt, Protocols of Elders of Zion, Albert Pike, Guy Carr's 'Satan, Prince of this World' and you will see evidence of this. You might not believe in Jesus but the opposition do. They hate Christ and carry out satanic rituals (see 'Bohemian Grove' and documentaries about Freemasonry and its God Jah-bul-on. Read Albert Pike, who wrote the masonic oaths and invented many of the degrees, and his hymn of praise to Lucifer). These are the organisations and the philosophies that encompass the people at the very top, who are directing the nightmare through which we are now living, 9/11 and all that.

Personally I think that organised genuine spirituality (religion) is ultimately the power with the most potential to stop these people in their tracks....not the Vatican, not the Rabbis or the Mullah's but humanity's will to goodness, the name that most give to this goodness is God.
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blackcat
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most evil people say the motivation that drives them comes from God. Bush and his followers claim to be acting on God's instructions. Nothing you have said is any different from my own personal experiences in terms of making any sense of life. Where we differ is I do not have any answer for myself and certainly not for anyone else, whereas you do have the answers and you quote the bible and the life of Christ as if they were facts. You do not know any more than me or anyone else and that is where your arrogance lies, as it does for anyone who claims to have the answer to the "meaning of life", using whatever religion as the explanation. I do not know and neither do you and nor does anyone. So called answers/explanations are no more than guesses and gambles. Your belief system is an ego-driven one in spite of the pseudo piety of its advocates. We matter as does a blade of grass but no more than that. If you and the rest of the religious robots could ditch your self-important "made in the image of god" and the "promise of eternal salvation" and recognise some genuine humility then maybe we could have some peace on Earth. I suspect however that wars will continue unabated with each participant having " God on their side".
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most scientists have the god of Newton, Darwin and latterly Einstein on their side. This still represents a belief system no more no less than Christianity, Islam Judaism and so on
The post quantum mechanics and superconducter folks are getting to the point, I admit, but this isn't at all represented in the general consensus as yet, which is slowing us all down with the deductive reasoning stuff

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most scientists have the god of Newton, Darwin and latterly Einstein on their side. This still represents a belief system no more no less than Christianity, Islam Judaism and so on

I have no hobbies but this does not make my hobby "the non pursuit of hobbies". That would mean I have a hobby which would invalidate the first statement. It is this circular "logic" which bedevils those of a religious bent. It is not a "belief system" to accept the reasoning of science. I believe that two plus two equals four but this is in no way a religious belief. When science clashes with the superstitious beliefs of religion such as when it is proven that the Earth orbits the sun or that the Earth is billions of years old and not just a few thousand, then it is the religion which has to alter its guesses or look foolish. They do so very reluctantly. Here is a definition of religion:-

Quote:
re·li·gion –noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom9. get religion, Informal. a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

Atheism is not a "religion" - it is the opposite.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
Atheism is not a "religion" - it is the opposite.

Is atheism a faith?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is atheism a faith?

How can it be? Faith in nothing?

Trying to make not having a religion into having the religion of "not having a religion" is absurd. I do not believe there is a God but that fact does not mean I have a "faith" that there is no God, or that the belief in there being no God is my particular brand of religion. If you do not believe there is a teapot orbiting the Earth it does not make it a belief in itself but merely a disagreement with an assertion. This is starting to sound like a Monty Python "Care for an argument" sketch!! When someone asserts that there is a God or a Heaven etc. etc. then disagreeing with those assertions is not a case of having one's own "beliefs" but simply a case of NOT agreeing with illogical and unfounded theories, usually stated as facts. I disagree with those who believe the Earth is flat but that does not mean I should be given some blanket label to put me in an opposing group. I am not in a group and nor would the flat-Earthists be if they did not form themselves in to one. That is the case with religions. They form themselves into organisations and then if you are not with them you are necessarily with another as they cannot deal with people without a label. They hate individuals who think for themselves and always have. That is their function. Control of the masses.
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Andrew Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This parallels my own experience (just at a letter writing level)

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=43445

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, its Amnesty International, they get prisoners of conscience out of prison. WTF did you expect them to do? Which Truth Movement leaders are unfairly gaoled? You might as well have asked your local PDSA to raise money to indict NIST!
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