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Zeitgeist The Movie
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weareallone
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Zeitgeist The Movie Reply with quote

Everybody please please please go watch this movie right now ... all the way through right to the end. Don't delay, it will blow your mind apart.

It is the best documentary out there, the quintessential "truth" documentary bar none.

Please distribute far and wide.

After looking and searching and searching for a documentary that needs to say all the right things, I have finally found it .... this is it, this is the one.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:45 am    Post subject: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First 10 minutes nearly had me reaching for the Stop Button. After that though its not bad at all. I hadn't heard the Religious explanation before.
No Plan B then!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread contains good critique

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=147413

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weareallone
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Input for Zeitgeist Reply with quote

I agree with all the points being made about such a potentially powerful film being yet another misinformation channel that plays directly into the hands of "them".

I've tried to contact Peter who is the creator of the movie and here was my feedback and suggestions for improvements (we'll see if he takes any of the suggestions to the next level). If he can make the changes then I think this film really has the potential to blow the covers off this whole crazy mess, once it starts catching on like a spark in a propane tank. Here were my suggestions to him:

1) Regarding the ending about the chips, where you say "The most incredible aspect of all ... these totalitarian elements will not be forced upon the people, they will be demanded". I can't tell you how many different scenarios I've gone through to figure out how they're going to convince the world to do this .... but here's the one that makes the most sense, and the clues are strewn throughout history. I think it would be great to include an example of how you think this will play out .... how will they plan to convince the world to do this? Why? What event? 911 was 3000 people, how are they going to get 8 billion people to line up and get chipped? Here's how: They are going to contract the food supply (as has happened throughout history). In the 1930's they contracted the money supply which had almost the same impact, but this time, they are going to do it with the world's food supply. Most farms are now commercial. All other aspects of food production/delivery are commercial these days, and nobody is left who knows how to farm. As peak oil starts to take a firm grip on oil prices, and oil production starts its uncontrollable decline, they are not going to be able to produce as much fertilizer, gas-up tractors, or deliver as much food ... and it will go into steep decline. They will accelerate this by stock-piling and withholding important resources to make this all seem more extreme than is needed ... the media will have a frenzy ... and mass starvation at a global level will begin. If you research the Masonic influences on the French Revolution, this is exactly what happened and the blame was incorrectly put on the Monarchy. Similarly in Russia, the Bolshevik sympathizing merchants hoarded food and let it rot to starve the people and improperly blame (through the media) the Czar Nicholas II to allow Lenin and company to topple the Czar. There are other examples of mass starvation (China) as well. This has always lead to the desired effect ... and will very very very likely happen again. When people are told "get chipped or you cannot have your food-ration", you can guess what will happen. People's very real fear of dying of starvation will force the chipping of the world's population without hesitation. If you include this example scenario in the film, it could really get people thinking about "the end-game" and about the how and why it could happen.


I had two comments about the Nazi's:

2a) The other thing is that the "Nazi's are evil" imagery gives people "the fear" you are trying to dispel. You must realize you are playing directly into the hands of "them". If you study The Holocaust in more detail, and study "National Socialism" in Germany in more detail, and read "Mein Kampf" particularly, and understand the roll of Zionism's partnership with Hitler at the time, you will see a very very different picture than what has been warped by Hollywood, the press and the media .. and now in your film. Germans are not stupid. There is no way Hitler could have had such an earth thundering following and wake up an entire people if there wasn't some truth to what he was trying to say. And there was. Hitler was a student of history of unbelievable depth ... he read books and books and books in his youth more than anyone ... and he understood who "they" were. He was against globalism, international finance, stock exchange manipulations, the lying media and it's social consequences and specifically understood how all this feeds into the dangers of parliamentary democracy. I do not agree with his methods or those that he was convinced to use by other members of the Nazi party or his Zionist partners in crime, but I do think he is completely misrepresented in the historical record. He did not bomb the Reichstag as an underhanded way to achieve power, he bombed it because he knew the dangers of democracy and its resulting apathy .. and the Masonic influences in the western world over it. He was 1000% against freemasonry and secret societies and their wire puller's influence in parliamentary government ... and that is why he bombed it. He believed in the true definition of a noble leader (whether he was or not, or was manipulated to be otherwise is independent of his beliefs which were closer to the Plato philosophy of leadership, and he also articulated Plato's philosophy of the dangers of democracy very well). All this re-thinking of Hitler leads to a very very deeply disturbing topic ... but that is something for you to follow up on. To understand a different tale of WWII and Germany, here are some titles for to get you started: (various book titles)

And from a follow-up email ....

2b) The Hitler thing really bothers me. Did you know that Hitler and Himmler, in 1943-1944, were meeting regularly to figure out how to keep the people in the camps alive (including Jews). Why? Because they were a very important part of the Germany war machine, and economy, producing weapons, helmets, clothes, etc. People in the camps were mistreated, but they were not killed on-mass in via genocide. Typhoid was ravaging the camps and the Zyclone gas was used to fumigate clothes, etc., not used for gassing people. Up on Himmler's top-10 priority list was to stop the people from dying in the camps, as they were desperately needed. The real enemies that should be focused on in your movie are not the Nazi's as the mainstream media is already falsely doing that. You should be focusing on Lenin, Stalin (40+million dead), and Mao in China (50 million dead). If you read about revisionist history about the Holocaust, they can barely account for 1.5million missing Jews (never mind 6 million) as those who emigrated to the U.S. were never counted, and those who supposedly never emigrated to Israel were doubly/triply counted in some cases. They also can't find a single shred of evidence that gassing people ever took place. The only evidence is heresay, from example, people's forged diaries. The real physical evidence is disease and from being (natural) casualties of war. To yet again, follow in the steps of those you want to root-out, you are playing their game. The real enemies (which the press and media won't touch ... and you can guess why, and should give you a hint of where to focus) is Lenin/Stalin in Russia from 1917-1950, and China starting with the rise of Mao (supported 100% by the White House at the time). That will focus people on the right personalities, places, and times.

And lastly a suggestion on more "war" topics to include ...

3) The "War on You" is a good conclusion. What would be even more profound is that there are many other "Wars" designed to never be won and it would be good to include 10-15 seconds of clips including for example, "The War on Cancer", "The War on AIDS" (which has a relationship to narcotics), and the "War on Drugs" (which is also a big part of the Vietnam story, and now very much the Afghanistan story as they are now the largest opium exporter) <before> you say "The War on You" ... since it really make people understand the tie-in that ALL wars are manipulated, not just the ones involving guns. They are all just as real and all just as potent. Here's some suggested readings on these topics ... (more book titles).

I'm sure he is getting an earful on his lack of fair play and misrepresentation of certain facts. To be fair, he has gone out of his way to really create a work of art (imo), and if we can support him and he is honest (which he seems to be, given the other content of the film), then maybe .... just maybe he will rethink and include the edits that I'm sure a great many people want to see in such a film.

His overall message is bang on though even if he's not playing the zionist card ...

weareallone !

And if we don't wise up, "evolve or perish", "grow-up or die", we are doomed.
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Craig W
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thoroughly enjoyed this new film and recommend that anyone interested in alternative history should see it.

Part one about religions was the best for me. I really learnt some things there. I was already of the view that Jesus probably never existed and that Christianity was merely a social control paradigm based on ideas frome arlier mythologies (Babylonian, Egyptian, etc). The dense and compelling info provided has convinced me that that is almost certainly true.

Part 2 was just a mish-mash of 911 stuff, nothing new there but useful for the newcomer.

Part 3 was a mix of banking stuff and the history of US war-mongering, war profiteering and false flag operations. There were a few snippets of interesting info including the Rules of Engagement for US forces in Vietnam, which I hadn't seen before. The film concluded that the Vietnam war was never meant to be won - not sure where the official reason of stopping the "domino effect" of Communist regime-changes fits in there...

I think the film could be tighter, shorter and punchier, and there are a few errors and omissions (where is Zionism?), but overall it's a very welcome addition to the alternative reality genre.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blackcat first raised this film here during this thread http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=9581&postdays=0&post order=asc&start=0
in the 'other controversies' section but no-one has directly commented on it there.

It's being discussed in detail here as Rodin pointed out http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=147413
Which links to a hefty debate on it here (including the filmaker)
http://www.911blogger.com/node/9292

I watched a week or so ago and have spent as much time as possible looking into the issues it raises in the first segment as its not a theory I had heard of before. Though beautiful in it's simplicity if it were true. Alot of it seems to check out, although similar aspects have been hotly debated for ages anyway.

The 9/11 section isnt bad at all, though I would have prefered seeing aspects of SnowyGrouchs research used for the Pentagon, rather than LooseChange, whilst the third segment is excellent, bar critics pointing out it avoids the Zionist angle directly. The production values are certainly high (which raises questions) and as you'll see, some critics think its deliberate dis-info throughout and label Fetzer and Shayler's inclusion as pointers to it, plus the religious attack, as a deliberate turn off/smear to 9/11 as an issue.

I like it but need to now do a lot of new research. It converts to DVD very well if you download it with vdownloader from google and then just use WinAVI Converter. You can always trim out the sections you disagree with as I think section 3 stands well enough on its own to wake people up.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spot on Wearealone.

Here is what I think.

The Talmud has created a secret society for Jews that buy into the guff between its pages. Guff about 'goy' = cattle and they = chosen ones. I hope & think most people of Jewish descent escape this vile programming. Some do - what % I have no clue.

The Masons - ditto with the aprons & *. They call us ther 'profane' or the 'profane goy'. Psychopaths have no 'soul' to sell and make ideal candidates. Normal people can be turned by greed.

Skull & Bones - again we see un-natural ritual programming of people. What do they call us?

It's the same formula over & over wrapped in (marginally) different paraphenalia.

Any 'religion' or sect with rituals, secrets, a supremacist bent and club exclusivity are ideal ways of organising an army of kommandants willing to do the dirty work of the elite. For example the Police and armed forces are stuffed with Masons, ready to spring into action.

Food withdrawal looks a certain bet for future control and depopulation.

I have not seen Zeitgeist 1 & 2. I know 1 rubbishes Christianity. Does it treat Judaism with equal disrespect?

Christianity far as I can see is now one of the least dangerous religions, one that gives pretty good moral guidance. Perhaps that is why ZG has singled it out for particular attack? I suspect Islam is similar, (though I was disappointed to learn that they too practice genital mutilation. How 'natural' is that then? Rolling Eyes )

Of course any religion can be misrepresented. As with Evangelicals and Zionist Christians (a contradiction in terms you would think). As it has been at times through the ages - inquisition, crusades etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More prostituted creativity, history and art. Like being back in the days of the Egyptian Pharoes...
One way to obscure real conspiracies like 9/11 and 7/7 is to fund films which promote false conspiracies. It's only in the age of the couch potato that anyone could be convinced that the Jesus story is a conspiracy. Especially after the effect his (mythical?) life and teachings had on the Roman Empire and the city of Jerusalem.
This idea that Jesus never existed at all is part of the defining mythos of the 21st Century mass media mind control. Let's find mankinds only spiritual lifeline to truth, privatise it (infiltrate the churches) and cut it off! This has never been possible before.

Aren't you even just a bit suspicious Craig that the movie ignores the massive financial clout and malign influence of Zionism throughout the 20th Century, right up to today and into the future?

Well a filmmaker can't bite the hand that feeds him now can he?

Craig W wrote:
I was already of the view that Jesus probably never existed and that Christianity was merely a social control paradigm based on ideas frome earlier mythologies (Babylonian, Egyptian, etc). The dense and compelling info provided has convinced me that that is almost certainly true.

I think the film could be tighter, shorter and punchier, and there are a few errors and omissions (where is Zionism?), but overall it's a very welcome addition to the alternative reality genre.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This idea that Jesus never existed at all is part of the defining mythos of the 21st Century mass media mind control. Let's find mankinds only spiritual lifeline to truth, privatise it (infiltrate the churches) and cut it off! This has never been possible before.

Aren't you even just a bit suspicious Craig that the movie ignores the massive financial clout and malign influence of Zionism throughout the 20th Century, right up to today and into the future?


Yes, Tony, I am. And I mentioned the omission of Zionism in my post.

I thought my comments might smoke you out! LOL

Regarding the defining mythos of the 20th century, I'd say you were dead wrong. The 20th century is just the beginning of the death throws of what has been the defining myth of the last two millennia in the west imo. In the age of rationality, such beliefs begin to appear justly ill-founded. When they can no longer be enforced with a rod of iron, or through total social censorship their power has to wain. And it will, eventually.

I have no problem with some of the teachings, just the idea that there is historic basis for them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Second World War was a terrible blow to God. Most of the European Rabbis were wiped out. Is that the way you want to see the 'myth' exploded. 'Cos exactly the same is happening now with Islam. All those with faith are in the NWO's sights. Now, as in the Warsaw ghetto.

What is actually waning, with masses of help from pseudo-science and TV news lies, is mankinds trust in one-another. The spiritual threads that keep us all focussed on the pursuit of truth and righteousness. Christianity has been like a dome of heavenly protection for Britain over the last 1000 years or so. Prince Charles, with his rejection of the Bible, and the murder of his beautiful, honest wife, has put a mean and miserable end to.

Try one little experiment. Pretend you are a homeless person, utterly destitute, penniless. Go round your nearest city asking where you can find food. You'll find invariably that it is only Christians that do anything about society's casualties. Only rarely does the Church of England do anything mind. For me, after hours of pontificating on spiritual matters, the proof of the pudding is to be found in the homeless shelters.

As for your assertion that there's no historic basis for Christ I point you here, or any University, to get up to speed with the facts.
http://www.bilderberg.org/trib.htm#historical

Quote:

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; 1 John 4:18

... the Jews which believed not ... drew Jason and certain other brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These ... have turned the world upside down ... all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus. Acts 17:5-7

When a man's ways please the LORD he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him - Proverbs 16: 7

Come to me all of you who are struggling and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

Put on the whole armour of God so you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the dark powers of this world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Ephesians 6:11-12

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12,13

"...when the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith upon the earth?" Luke 18:8

When people are saying: "Peace and Safety" then a sudden destruction cometh upon them as upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such-and-such a city, stay there a year trading and make a profit"! You don't even know if you will be alive tomorrow! For all you are is a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. James 4:13-14

No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon [money, riches]. Matthew 6:24

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isaiah 11:6

"If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you I say to everyone: 'Watch!'" Mark 13:36-37


Craig W wrote:

Regarding the defining mythos of the 20th century, I'd say you were dead wrong. The 20th century is just the beginning of the death throws of what has been the defining myth of the last two millennia in the west imo. In the age of rationality, such beliefs begin to appear justly ill-founded. When they can no longer be enforced with a rod of iron, or through total social censorship their power has to wain. And it will, eventually.

I have no problem with some of the teachings, just the idea that there is historic basis for them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, thanks for the link. I visited it and read the few sources for a historical Jesus. Clearly there are some disputes between modern historians over the validity of these records. Your site rightly points out that the Josephus quote is doubted by some. As we both well know, history is usually written by those in charge and/or by someone who has an axe to grind...

What is your explanation for the many similarities between the Biblical character called Jesus and many previous historic figures of worship such as Horus, Krishna, Mithra, etc, etc? Do you acknowledge these similarities? And if so, how do they fit into to your understanding of the "real" Jesus? When and how was he really born, etc?

What also is your explanation for the apparent evidence of his being a sun-god (the halo, the language of "light" and dark, rising, etc, the coincidental astrological timing of Xmas, etc)?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
Try one little experiment. Pretend you are a homeless person, utterly destitute, penniless. Go round your nearest city asking where you can find food. You'll find invariably that it is only Christians that do anything about society's casualties.


You think it's that cut and dried? In Turkey, for example, I have encountered the gamut of traits one also finds here - including generosity- among no less secular Muslims.

As to the historical record of Jesus - I really am in no position to judge. I'd like to think he did exist and lead by example. Was he 'channeled' from the Almighty? That's a stretch for a rationalist like me.

But I resonate with yr complaint about how the world is being 'degenerated', Baser instincts are rewarded and encouraged. Nobler ones penalised. It cannot end well unless we break the hold 'they' have had on us for such a long, long time. Because they now have the technology to utterly dominate us.[/code]

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of pages I found that relate to my last post.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
Did a historical Jesus exist?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
Parallels between Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Religion Reply with quote

Quote:
Our "programming" begins the day we are born. To understand this simple fact, and how it relates to the nature of us, the earth, and our surroundings, will (could?) be our salvation ... if people will put down all pretexts, biases, preconceptions, bigotry, chauvinism, intollerance, and fear that was programmed the day sunlight shone in our eyes, we will be free.

This is the Revolution. The ultimate Evolution ... and I get excited to see people finally understanding this.

You must understand .... weareallone


Well said. Indeed we are all one and religious divisions just as the divisions between truthings and researchers are all illusions of this ultimate truth.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------

Ooops, b*.

I'm really sorry weareallone

I went to quote from your last post and make the following comment. Instead of pushing quote I obviously clicked edit and in doing so have editted half of your excellent post away and all I meant to say is great post. Really sorry. i hope you can remeber the words of wisdom that I accidently deleted

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The paganisation (Christmas - yeah right) of Christ's mesage began with Constantine and Popery. Until then it was what it has always been at its core - a persecuted revolutionary spiritual movement in tune with our heavenly Father's plan.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the best films I've ever seen. Simply incredible.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I've ever felt so emotionally riled from watching or reading something before. I am truly angry, upset and to be honest, feel hopeless. I feel like I want to go into my town centre with a megaphone and scream everything I've just watched. I was aware of alot of the stuff in that doc, except the Christanity part, but it was the 3rd part that really got me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Religion Reply with quote

Ian, Please don't delete this one!

Tony, Rodin,

I don't think anyone is saying that the foundation of Christianity is not based on generally good moral teachings. It has without a doubt been used as a tool of severe abuses throughout history, however in general, the majority of Christians are "good", and the concepts embedded in Christianity are virtuous. In fact, if people would just live by and obey the 10 commandments (not the Talmud's warped version of them mind you), then we would be in a much better place. But it isn't that simple.

The main problem with believing in the good religions is that it allows the human psyche to be split into the duality religions. Those that celebrate the occult, the "black mass" creeps, Satanists, Luciferians, and OTO psychopaths. Essentially the opposites of Christianity/Islam/Judaism. And it is these other religions that have all the power. Embedded deep in the ranks of secret societies are the nuts who really do sacrifice babies and children to celebrate the death of the concept of the "false prophet", and the "false Christ", who feed footage upon footage of sexual abuse into the snuff film industry. Did you know that the biggest spike of child abductions occurs in and around Christmas? Do you know where they go? It's not pretty.

The main point of the film on religion is that ALL religion is bunk. The good, the bad, the white, the black, the grey ... all of it. It's all nonsense. And it's all just part of the larger programming of the human mind. If people woke up and started to truly understand that everything they believe has been fed into their minds from day one, and that it is only them, within themselves who has all the power, that they are "the one", they are "the omnipotent" and no-one else, then the control that has been governed over people for millennium would be flushed down the toilet like the smelly turd it is.

The last 5 minutes of the film contains the most powerful thought provoking message ever to grace a "truth film" .... EVER.

Our programming begins the day we are born. To understand this simple fact, and how it relates to the nature of us, the earth, and our surroundings, will (could?) be our salvation ... if people will put down all pretexts, biases, preconceptions, bigotry, chauvinism, intolerance, and fear that was programmed the day sunlight shone in our eyes, we will be free.

This is the Revolution, the ultimate Evolution ... and I, again, get excited to see people finally understanding this.

To have independence and individual freedom on a global scale we must first and foremost believe that ..... weareallone

You must understand .... weareallone
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weareallalone -

Quote:
and read "Mein Kampf"


Being absolute cobblers, this isn't a good advert for Hitler. Which incoherent racist rant do you like best?

Quote:
Zionism's partnership with Hitler


I haven't myself looked at this in depth yet, but I suspect 'deal making' might be more accurate. Edwin Black's the transfer agreement is on my 'to read' list.

Quote:
Germans are not stupid


No. Neither are Russians, Cambodians, Chinese etc etc

Quote:
There is no way Hitler could have had such an earth thundering following and wake up an entire people if there wasn't some truth to what he was trying to say.


The popularity of an idea is not an accurate signifier of its quality. That's like saying the pop charts are an accurate indicator of music quality. Hitler got in with what? About 43%? (OTTOMH). How was his following earth thundering? Does George Bush having a sizable following make him right?

Quote:
Hitler was a student of history of unbelievable depth ... he read books and books and books in his youth more than anyone


More than anyone? In the whole world? What Hitler did or did not read is a matter of conjecture and speculation. There is no evidence he studied history to 'unbelievable' depth.

Quote:
and he understood who "they" were.


The joooooos?

Quote:
He was against globalism, international finance, stock exchange manipulations


...Jews, Roma, gay people, the disabled, the mentally ill, trades unions or any kind of organised labour rights, individual liberty ('anti-socials' went 'camping')...I could go on.

Quote:
the lying media


Goebbels did such a dandy job of making the media a shining beacon of truth, didn't he? Cracking 'documentaries' like 'The Eternal Jew' were just a breath of fresh air, right?



Link


the rest here -

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+eternal+jew&search=
Ah - the nostalgia of the glory days of the Nazi 'free press'!

Quote:
specifically understood how all this feeds into the dangers of parliamentary democracy


Cos dictatorship is just so much better...

Quote:
He did not bomb the Reichstag as an underhanded way to achieve power,bombed it because he knew the dangers of democracy and its resulting apathy


He most probably did it, but no-one knows for sure. So let me get this straight - you think democracy is 'dangerous' and apathy is best cured by a one party state? You must love Lenin.

Quote:
He believed in the true definition of a noble leader (whether he was or not, or was manipulated to be otherwise is independent of his beliefs which were closer to the Plato philosophy of leadership, and he also articulated Plato's philosophy of the dangers of democracy very well).


And the 'true definition' of a 'noble leader' is...? I don't personally see society being ruled by an elite caste of 'philosopher kings' as the way forward, but that's just me.

Quote:
All this re-thinking of Hitler leads to a very very deeply disturbing topic


Too right; before I looked into 'revisionism', I'd never have dreamed I'd find myself browsing crackpot white supremacist websites.

Quote:
here are some titles for to get you started: (various book titles)


I'd love to see them. Do you shop with the IHR?

Quote:
Did you know that Hitler and Himmler, in 1943-1944, were meeting regularly to figure out how to keep the people in the camps alive (including Jews). Why? Because they were a very important part of the Germany war machine, and economy, producing weapons, helmets, clothes, etc


They did? How touching. Mind you, you'd think they could have started with all that unnecessary waste caused by all those deaths on the trains heading for the camps, or all those Jews shot by the Order Police in Poland and so on. There was concern over wanton slaughter depriving them of labour (IIRC, this was less a concern prior to Operation Barbarossa going tits up as it was anticipated there would be a steady flood of Soviet slaves) - on 27th Jan 1943, for example, there is communication between Sommer and Hoss containing a request for 'careful' selection. However, out of 5022, 4092 were 'specially accomodated' as they were 'unfit for work'. They presumably ended up in the mythical Auschwitz luxury apartments.

Quote:
People in the camps were mistreated, but they were not killed on-mass in via genocide. Typhoid was ravaging the camps and the Zyclone gas was used to fumigate clothes, etc., not used for gassing people


I guess they just mistook the people for dirty clothes at times. These things happen, eh?

Quote:
Up on Himmler's top-10 priority list was to stop the people from dying in the camps, as they were desperately needed.


He clearly failed. Miserably.

Quote:
You should be focusing on Lenin, Stalin (40+million dead), and Mao in China (50 million dead)


I seem to have missed the latest series of 'Britains got communism' with Stal'n'Mao. I grew up in the 1980s and it was communists this communists that every 5 minutes. God...and Rambo!

Quote:
If you read about revisionist history about the Holocaust, they can barely account for 1.5million missing Jews


The 'revisionists' are the only ones who can't.

Quote:
They also can't find a single shred of evidence that gassing people ever took place. The only evidence is heresay, from example, people's forged diaries.


Apart from the confessions, eyewitness testimony, memoirs, diaries, interviews, physical evidence, blueprints...
And so the T4 programme never happened either? None of those disabled and mentally ill people ever got gassed inside Germany? Then exactly what was all that furore among the German population about?

Quote:
This is the Revolution, the ultimate Evolution


I'm all for revolution, but if it has anything to do with National Socialism, I will be fighting against it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I read Dogsmilk's posts the more I realize what a pile of lies we have been fed about the "Holocaust". Instead of accepting the kind of stuff repeated for the last 60 years and embellished with the passing of time, I am becoming increasingly aware of what a danger the Zionists pose to the world. The idea that the "Holocaust" must not be "revised" ie questioned, suggests to me that there is something seriously deceitful happening. When it has been "revised", by people who risk careers and their freedom, it has often exposed massive deception in the "Holocaust" industry. As soon as the cracks show there is an army of Dogsmilks ready to start papering over. If there were some Jews behaving in the 1930s like some have behaved this decade, clearly behind the murderous attacks on defenceless civilians in New York and elsewhere, then it is no wonder they were targetted. I have believed everything Hollywood has thrown at me concerning the "Holocaust" for most of my life until recently. Thanks to Dogsmilk and propagandists like him, I am fast seeing the truth.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone interested in further info on the Religious aspects raised in this film may find the work of Michael Tsarion interesting.

Just search for Tsarion on Google Video.

He goes into much more detail about the origin and reasons for Religion, why the Zodiac is a vital thing to understand, why these NWO types do what they do, and why our whole planet is in danger, not just the human race.

One very interesting suggestion is to read the bible and when they use a name like 'Elijah' think 'tribe' not person.

If his work is roughly right, we, the adamist, humans may have never had freedom in our whole history.

He also mentions that the 9/11 farce worries him... and it does me. Its almost as if they 'wanted' this debate raised and they made it an obvious issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
The more I read Dogsmilk's posts the more I realize what a pile of lies we have been fed about the "Holocaust".

Dont be too hard on Dogsmilk SHE is only a victim of the mass brainwashing we all have been subjected to since we were born.
I am sure she will learn to accept that some of what we have been told as history is a lie.

European Union nations agreed on new rules including setting jail sentences against those who deny or trivialize the Holocaust.

The proposed rules, which still have to be vetted by national parliaments, calls for EU governments to impose up to three-year prison sentences for those convicted of denying genocide such as the mass killing of Jews during World War II. An effort by Baltic nations demanding major Stalinist atrocities should be included in the EU law was rejected, however.

The genocide of Jews is the only genocide referred to within the new rules, which still needs the backing of national parliaments and the European Parliament, officials said.


Thoughtcrimes as seen in George Orwell's 1984

The best way to make people wake up and realise they have been lied to is to outlaw thought. They may outlaw 911 and 7/7 truth too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
More prostituted creativity, history and art. Like being back in the days of the Egyptian Pharoes...
One way to obscure real conspiracies like 9/11 and 7/7 is to fund films which promote false conspiracies. It's only in the age of the couch potato that anyone could be convinced that the Jesus story is a conspiracy. Especially after the effect his (mythical?) life and teachings had on the Roman Empire and the city of Jerusalem.
This idea that Jesus never existed at all is part of the defining mythos of the 21st Century mass media mind control. Let's find mankinds only spiritual lifeline to truth, privatise it (infiltrate the churches) and cut it off! This has never been possible before.
[/quote]

The processes you describe have occurred before under Hitlers Germany.
A concerted effort by the Nazis to attack the Church whether Protestant or Catholic occurred. Many priests were condemned for being paedophiles, many condemned for financial irregularities, then many Churches were forced to hold Nazi political rallies. Under Hitlers Germany there was only one God, him all others had to be condemned. Paganism was encouraged and by 1939 it had around 5 million followers.

In our times there is a USA Freedom Religion Act which seeks to separate Church and State everywhere around the globe and at the same time non-religions like Scientology and Kabbalah are promoted, given tax free status and all traditional institutions are undermined. The purpose is to destroy any arena where people meet independently of the state and may discuss various things withouts the states direct influence and control.

Many assume the current attacks on the Church in a raft of new books from neo-con armchair warriors like Hitchens are 'progressive'. If the eventual aim to impose a NWO with compliant clergy is the result it isn't.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blackcat wrote:
The more I read Dogsmilk's posts the more I realize what a pile of lies we have been fed about the "Holocaust". Instead of accepting the kind of stuff repeated for the last 60 years and embellished with the passing of time, I am becoming increasingly aware of what a danger the Zionists pose to the world. The idea that the "Holocaust" must not be "revised" ie questioned, suggests to me that there is something seriously deceitful happening. When it has been "revised", by people who risk careers and their freedom, it has often exposed massive deception in the "Holocaust" industry. As soon as the cracks show there is an army of Dogsmilks ready to start papering over. If there were some Jews behaving in the 1930s like some have behaved this decade, clearly behind the murderous attacks on defenceless civilians in New York and elsewhere, then it is no wonder they were targetted. I have believed everything Hollywood has thrown at me concerning the "Holocaust" for most of my life until recently. Thanks to Dogsmilk and propagandists like him, I am fast seeing the truth.


Yet the more I read your posts the more apparent it becomes you've never actually taken the time to seriously look at the history you feel so confident to dismiss. You still haven't told me which specific texts you've found wanting. I can supply you with a extensive reading list if you so desire. Or do you just blindly believe the highly selective 'evidence' your chums at the IHR peddle? Is something that challenges 'official history' inevitably correct?
Do you agree with weareallalones comments about the wonders of Nazi Germany?
Personally, I would not subscribe to a bunch of stuff I read on the internet without first having a damn good look at the other side. You keep repeating this idea that because 'revisionism' is censured it means there's 'something to hide', yet you consistently fail to demonstrate the logic behind this fundamentally illogical statement. I recall reading a while ago a teacher was sacked for being in the BNP. I personally thought it was bang out of order to sack someone for being in the 'wrong' political party. I didn't think this teacher was therefore some noble martyr for the 'suppressed truth' of BNP policy. This notion that because Holocaust Denial is (unjustly IMO) suppressed it is therefore true is consistently repeated, but is the kind of flawed logic a ten year old should be able to see through.
Please demonstrate to me how the fact that a proposition has been politically censured is a sufficient condition that said proposition is therefore true.
I notice that again and again I point out that many Holocaust historians oppose banning revisionism, and again and again I receive no reply.
I notice you've lapsed into saying how "some Jews" have behaved "this decade".
So you therefore define the actions of Israel in terms of "Jews"? If a muslim does something grim, does that reflect on "the muslims". Does that mean "the muslims" are more likely to have done bad things in the past? Christians? Atheists? Zoroastrians? Buddhists? Pagans?
So the fact that Israeli "Jews" have committed appalling acts in Palestine ("clearly behind the murderous attacks in New York" is a conclusion I can only regard as "surprising". I can't wait to hear what you've got to say to back that up.) therefore implies that "Jews" are likely to have behaved in a comparably appalling fashion in Germany circa 1930s? You call this reasoning? So did they?
For God's sake, you still subscribe to this notion that the Jewish boycott of Hitler was some kind of totally arbitrary, out-of-the-blue arbitrary attack on someone who apparently was all innocent, hadn't written vicious attacks on Jews in Mein Kamf etc. Something, I notice, you repeatedly fail to evidence.

Hollywood and the media has repeatedly told me how dreadful the Soviet Union was. My cynicism about 'our side' does not therefore mean I now think they're suppressing some truth about how great the Soviet Union was. Or Cambodia. Or China. Even if they did go on to ban 'revision' of Soviet atrocities. Oddly, this 'the PTB don't like Nazis, so maybe we should all therefore be Nazis' and 'revise' Hitler infantile logic magically doesn't apply when it comes to communism. It's like, "they're against it, so I must be for it". This flat-earth, crudely manichean, view of the world continually perplexes me. It's on a par with "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".
What I think is particularly tragic is the way the Holocaust has been hijacked - pro-Israel/Zionist and anti-Jew/Zionist politics have appropriated human tragedy to push their respective agendas.

You use the phrase 'holocaust industry' - I think there is a good case that the Holocaust has been used unscrupulously for political purposes. This does not mean it never happened. Have you actually read Finkelstein's book of the same name? Do you understand the distinction?
As I have said before, I am simply astonished that people exercise a healthy scepticism when it comes to the PTB, yet simultaneously manage to think there cannot possibly be any poltical agendas among people writing 'revisionism' on the net. The previous wilfull denial on that other thread that there cannot possibly be any far right agendas at play with this 'let's revise the Nazis' nonsense amply demonstrated to me how selectively people employ their critical faculties.

What "cracks" have I been "papering"? - your vague statements? You asked me about the reduction of the death toll in Auschwitz - I gave you a reply - you didn't respond. Propaganda? e.g. the destruction of the European Jews came out to little fanfare and was relatively obscure for years. Some propaganda. Holocaust history was only use politically relatively recently.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogsmilk wrote:
Do you agree with weareallalones comments about the wonders of Nazi Germany?
.


Anyone who agrees with weareallalone should be ashamed of themselves. I found his pro nazi bile disgusting.

Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao were all atheists and i believe atheism is the threat to peace everywhere. Zionism is like communism an atheist ideology. Hitler was born a catholic but became atheist. Pol Pot too was a catholic and became communist. etc

my point is by promoting atheism the consequences are also promoted

Karl Marx, Lenin and Trotsky were jewish before they became communist which as i stated is a derived version of the Kibbutz system.
Golda Meyer was Jewish before she became a Zionist.

Do you see the links?
A Catholic who becomes an atheist eg Hitler retains many of his beliefs, Hitler regarded Germany as Heaven and was an avid follower of Charles Darwin which in his twisted brain he believed he was doing a good thing by killing so many inferior people including his own cousins.
A Jew who becomes a communist again retains some of his background but again in a twisted way.
A Jew who becomes a zionist falls into the same trap. They are ready to sacrifice countless lives including lives of their former brethren to achieve their aims.
Zionists like Rockefellar and JP Morgan financed Hitler that is an undisputable fact.
Zionists like Sali Meyer prevented Jews from being evacuated from Germany, even UK based Jewish MPs blocked an attempt by the British government to evacuate Rabbincal leaders to the Island of Mauritous. America did not allow any Jew to be granted visas until about 1944. Hitler himself offered to expell the Jews to Spain in return for a payment of $250 per family which is a fairly small amount of money and considering the Vatican as well was financing Hitler was easy to facilitate.
But the zionists blocked all evacuation attempts.
These are historic facts which are a strong reason why Jews must divorce themselves from zionist ideology which is in fact anti-Jewish and forbidden by the Talmud.
I trust what i am told by a Rabbinical scholar such as David Weiss regarding Judaism because i regard this as being a valid source.
I reject what i am told by an American / South African dual national usually under indictment for fraud appearing on tv and talking about Judaism because i do not regard this as being a valid source.
Quote:
The ultimate establishment of the Zionist State, the fulfilment of the Zionist ideology, takes this blasphemy a step further. The Jewish people were sent into exile by Divine decree. They where then expressly commanded by the Almighty, not to attempt to leave their exilic existence through any human intervention. They were expressly forbidden to create their own state, such as the Zionist state of "Israel". (Talmud, Tractate Kesuboth, p.111).

Instead of getting caught up in this Holocaust argument look at the causes and the people behing Hitler. Just like you must look at the people behind Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and Pol Pot.
Dont forget Pol Pot despite being a Marxist was supported by America and most of the world because he was seen as anti Vietnamese

George Bush's grandad is one such person who supported and helped Hitler and now the grandson George W Bush is the Zionist champion



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
do you just blindly believe the highly selective 'evidence' your chums at the IHR peddle?

Do you just blindly accept things? Is that the problem? You wish to place your own shortcomings onto others?

I do not know what the IHR is.

Quote:
Is something that challenges 'official history' inevitably correct?

Do you think things are "inevitably correct" just because they are challenged? There you go again placing your own shortcomings on to others. I believe it when it is proven it and history is re-written accordingly.

Quote:
Do you agree with weareallalones comments about the wonders of Nazi Germany?

My my - your propaganda is full throttle today. Do you agree with such a disgusting murderous group of people? Maybe not - you just see a means of exploiting it by making out Jews suffered disproportionately to Justify the horror of Israel - a project that was in full swing well before Hitler was heard of.

Quote:
This notion that because Holocaust Denial is (unjustly IMO) suppressed it is therefore true is consistently repeated, but is the kind of flawed logic a ten year old should be able to see through.

Just like a ten year old could see that suppression does NOT make it true but makes it difficult to question any of it on pain of severe penalty and suggests there is something seriously wrong with the account we are told (ordered) to believe.

Quote:
Please demonstrate to me how the fact that a proposition has been politically censured is a sufficient condition that said proposition is therefore true.

Please talk fuc*ing sense.

Quote:
I notice you've lapsed into saying how "some Jews" have behaved "this decade".
So you therefore define the actions of Israel in terms of "Jews"? If a muslim does something grim, does that reflect on "the muslims". Does that mean "the muslims" are more likely to have done bad things in the past? Christians? Atheists? Zoroastrians? Buddhists? Pagans?

Iraqi?? Please stop asking stupid questions. You are well aware that it is groups of people that end up being attacked, usually whole countries, because of the actions of some powerful representatives of that group and that it is, sadly, human nature. I do not condone the attack on any innocent people, Jews or anyone else. Do you condemn the whole of the German population for what they did? They certainly copped it. It is the way it works and you know it. It does not mean I condone it but it is what can be expected. If you were one of thousands of innocent German children killed by allied bombs "so it goes". If a Jew ditto. Who starts it is a whole different argument.

Quote:
clearly behind the murderous attacks in New York" is a conclusion I can only regard as "surprising". I can't wait to hear what you've got to say to back that up.

I thought it might surprise you. Then again I do not find that surprising. However blatant their involvement you will be "blind" to it. I won't waste my time repeating the connections they are so numerous and you are well aware of them.

Quote:
Oddly, this 'the PTB don't like Nazis, so maybe we should all therefore be Nazis' and 'revise' Hitler infantile logic magically doesn't apply when it comes to communism.

More distorted "logic". That conclusion might make sense to you but it is not something I believe. I do not wish to disbelieve what I have been fed about history as a reaction against the PTB. I question it because it is so clearly full of holes and they are now making it a criminal offence to point them out.
Quote:
This flat-earth, crudely manichean, view of the world continually perplexes me. It's on a par with "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

That exactly sums up my view of your belief that what we have been told is true and must not be questioned. Your persistent propaganda in defence of the officially accepted version of events, albeit punctuated with a few seemingly reasonable points, (like you disagree with the suppression of investigation, which is easy to do since it changes nothing) shows how totally biased you are in favour of one side of the argument. And however much you flannel there IS an argument.

Quote:
You use the phrase 'holocaust industry' - I think there is a good case that the Holocaust has been used unscrupulously for political purposes. This does not mean it never happened.

I do not doubt that millions of Jews were murdered in WW2. It would be bizarre if they had not since so many others died eg 20 million Russians. I do not accept that their deaths are any more deplorable than any others and it seems to me I am expected to believe that. I am very suspicious of the story of "systematic" extermination as well, and it should be anyone's right to be so. I believed it for decades without question but was presented with evidence to the contrary, much like the moon landings which I now doubt ever happened. My mind is not closed on either subject but I no longer believe what people like you keep spoon feeding. For that I thank you.

Quote:
this 'let's revise the Nazis' nonsense amply demonstrated to me how selectively people employ their critical faculties.

Quite the opposite I believe. calling it "revise the Nazis' nonsense" does not make it something that should not be looked at. You show your fixed mind and inability to wish anyone to use any critical faculties at every post. I will "revise" ie investigate if I feel like it and reach my own conclusion in spite of whatever you wish to impose.

Quote:
What "cracks" have I been "papering"? - your vague statements?

It refers to your endless attacks on anyone who dares to oppose your view of history. I forget the name of the Jew who visited a death camp and made a video exposing the lies, exaggerations and distortions of what we have been told by the like of you. He has had a very difficult time as a "self-hating Jew" but if I find the link I will post it. It is the video which first made me realize what rubbish people like you were spouting.
You couldn'd do me a favour and explain what the following is all about could you? Try and get me back to sleep would you!

http://americandefenseleague.com/onaleash.htm

Quote:
Ariel Sharon: 'We control America'
Palestinian Information Centre
Wednesday, October 3, 2001

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM -- An acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres during which Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we control America."

According the Israeli Hebrew radio Kol Yisrael Wednesday, Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and turn the US against us.

At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying "every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

The radio said Peres and other cabinet ministers warned Sharon against saying what he said in public, because "it would cause us a public relations disaster."


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Input for Zeitgeist Reply with quote

weareallone wrote:
I had two comments about the Nazi's:

2a) The other thing is that the "Nazi's are evil" imagery gives people "the fear" you are trying to dispel. You must realize you are playing directly into the hands of "them". If you study The Holocaust in more detail, and study "National Socialism" in Germany in more detail, and read "Mein Kampf" particularly, and understand the roll of Zionism's partnership with Hitler at the time, you will see a very very different picture than what has been warped by Hollywood, the press and the media .. and now in your film. Germans are not stupid. There is no way Hitler could have had such an earth thundering following and wake up an entire people if there wasn't some truth to what he was trying to say. And there was. Hitler was a student of history of unbelievable depth ... he read books and books and books in his youth more than anyone ... and he understood who "they" were. He was against globalism, international finance, stock exchange manipulations, the lying media and it's social consequences and specifically understood how all this feeds into the dangers of parliamentary democracy. I do not agree with his methods or those that he was convinced to use by other members of the Nazi party or his Zionist partners in crime, but I do think he is completely misrepresented in the historical record. He did not bomb the Reichstag as an underhanded way to achieve power, he bombed it because he knew the dangers of democracy and its resulting apathy .. and the Masonic influences in the western world over it. He was 1000% against freemasonry and secret societies and their wire puller's influence in parliamentary government ... and that is why he bombed it. He believed in the true definition of a noble leader (whether he was or not, or was manipulated to be otherwise is independent of his beliefs which were closer to the Plato philosophy of leadership, and he also articulated Plato's philosophy of the dangers of democracy very well). All this re-thinking of Hitler leads to a very very deeply disturbing topic ... but that is something for you to follow up on. To understand a different tale of WWII and Germany, here are some titles for to get you started: (various book titles)

And from a follow-up email ....

2b) The Hitler thing really bothers me. Did you know that Hitler and Himmler, in 1943-1944, were meeting regularly to figure out how to keep the people in the camps alive (including Jews). Why? Because they were a very important part of the Germany war machine, and economy, producing weapons, helmets, clothes, etc. People in the camps were mistreated, but they were not killed on-mass in via genocide. Typhoid was ravaging the camps and the Zyclone gas was used to fumigate clothes, etc., not used for gassing people. Up on Himmler's top-10 priority list was to stop the people from dying in the camps, as they were desperately needed. The real enemies that should be focused on in your movie are not the Nazi's as the mainstream media is already falsely doing that. You should be focusing on Lenin, Stalin (40+million dead), and Mao in China (50 million dead). If you read about revisionist history about the Holocaust, they can barely account for 1.5million missing Jews (never mind 6 million) as those who emigrated to the U.S. were never counted, and those who supposedly never emigrated to Israel were doubly/triply counted in some cases. They also can't find a single shred of evidence that gassing people ever took place. The only evidence is heresay, from example, people's forged diaries. The real physical evidence is disease and from being (natural) casualties of war. To yet again, follow in the steps of those you want to root-out, you are playing their game. The real enemies (which the press and media won't touch ... and you can guess why, and should give you a hint of where to focus) is Lenin/Stalin in Russia from 1917-1950, and China starting with the rise of Mao (supported 100% by the White House at the time). That will focus people on the right personalities, places, and times.


As I said previously in parts you talk a lot of sense, but I only hope the creator of this film ignores your advice regarding Hitler and the nazis.

You sound like an apologist for them, even an admirier. Such talk is dangerous nonsense.

Hitler was against a "lying media". Yeah right

There are very few rules here, but promoting hatred is one of them and in your apparent eulogies of Hitler, you come dangerously close to crossing that line.
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Dogsmilk
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lenin was not Jewish. His grandfather was from a Jewish family. That's like saying the fact my grandmother went to church makes me a Christian.
Whether someone psychologically retains an element of a religious strain within their family and how they do so is highly contingent; it depends on how prominent this was in their upbringing, whether they accepted or rebelled against it and so in. The factors that determine our adult psychological makeup are numerous and complex - just look at the enormous role played by attachment. I'd resist the notion you inevitably retain it in a 'twisted' form, but I agree some people retain strong elements of belief systems in their psyche though they feel they have rejected them. Makes me think of 'catholic guilt'.

I don't agree that atheism is a 'threat', but I also don't think religion is either. I think what people do with and twist either into often is. George Bush and Tony Blair are Christians. Though if you were to say they don't act like Christians should, I'd totally agree.

Proto-communist ideas have a historical linkage with religion. - with Christianity, look at Leo Tolstoy and his ideas, or the Diggers for example. In fact, the notion that this is God's earth, not that of earthly leaders, is consistent with the notion that it should be held and worked in common fellowship. Communism never used to mean Bolshevism. Sound ideas are hijacked by demagoges for their own ends. Even capitalism has its merits in theory.
But, as I've said before, the word 'communism' is a funny one. I have great sympathy with communism but despise Bolshevism, Maoism etc. Communism used to encompass the range of radical ideologies prevalent a hundred years ago that desired non-hierarchical, egalitarian, mutually supportive systems espoused by the likes of Kropotkin, Malatesta, Reclus and (in a more hardcore fashion) Bakunin.
Marx was just one of the radical thinkers of the time. Though I suspect such notions as the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' being attractive to somer kinds of people and his victory over Bakunin at the International helped him some. Never having read Capital, I do not pretend I really understand Marxism. Many Marxists I've met clearly don't either.
what other pepole do in his name is their responsibility, not his. Just like if you do something in the name of Jesus, particularly never having read the Bible, that doesn't put the responsibilty for your actions on Christ.

I agree with looking behind the scenes. I agree there was much corporate involvement with the Third Reich. IBM helped the Holocaust happen. I think there is much complexity in WWII and I simply do not think 'good fought evil'. Hitler was unequivocally an *, but that doesn't mean his opponents were saints or that there wasn't collusion. I am interested in the behaviour of certain Zionists during the period. This is an area I want to look at. I won't make up my mind until I've read around a bit. If you can recommend any further texts (I've made a note of the one you mentioned yesterday) I would appreciate it. So much to read, so little time to do it in!

I think America supports whoever it is deemed tactically in their interests to do so at the time irrespective of morality or concern for human rights. Corporations don't care as long as there's profit and there isn't sufficient negative PR to make it counter-productive. The Nazis used slave labour then, Nike and others use slave labour now. Simple as. When they're performing a desirable function they're blameless, when they're not they're fundamentally evil. Prescott Bush did indeed happily deal with Hitler. He wasn't the only one. Even Coca-cola were at it.

I don't like Israeli state policy or Zionist ideology either. Though we do shout at each other a bit, if there is one thing I totally respect you for Stelios, it is your clear and consistent criticism of Israel and Zionism coupled with an overt avoidance of pinning everything on 'the Jews'.

Ooh - blackcat just replied - will respons later - may have to be tomorrow as will be working late. But I see yet again you reply my alleged fluff with nothing of actual substance. Like you're fond of saying, just repeating something doesn't make it true.
But the Jew you are referring to is most likely David Coleman. He retracted his claims in 1998. There are numerous rebuttals of his claims. I assume you have read them.

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blackcat
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the Jew you are referring to is most likely David Coleman. He retracted his claims in 1998. There are numerous rebuttals of his claims. I assume you have read them.

I bet he did!!!!! Yes I have read them. More dross from the likes of yourself. "Revisionism" must not be allowed to point out a few facts
I like the way you call my response to your irrational logic "fluff". Your vague statements and repeated unsubstantiated "conclusions" are ok then. I apparently have "chums" somewhere I have never heard of. Nice.
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