FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist  Chat Chat  UsergroupsUsergroups  CalendarCalendar RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Mon03Sep - LONDON - 7/7 bombing victims' meeting
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    9/11, 7/7 & the War on Freedom Forum Index -> Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Ok Staraker lets move beyond the photos, because until a full investiagation takes place, or the researchers can interview the photographers and survivors to chronicle their stories we will continue to play this game of verbal tennis.

It seems to me that some people are prepared to cry "Foul!" over some/most/all of the pictures, but the fact is that all of them make sense in the context of all the others. I note that BBC News the next morning showed mobile phone video footage shot by someone walking down Upper Woburn Place that shows smoke still in the air, the area full of people, and some of those on the top deck already standing up. Whatever actually happened, it has to be within those parameters, and the idea that the bus was empty and the area clear when it blew up is a dead duck. The sad reality is that - depending on how much veracity you ascribe to various eyewitness reports - the whole thing could have been done by three people or less, Hasib Hussein not necessarily being one of them.

Having now investigated the lines of sight in the Square and surrounding streets, it's clear that Obachike's "CCTV" footage - whether it shows him or not - could only have been shot from one of the windows of a first or second floor (second or third for Americans) flat in the south side of Endsleigh Court. This means another potential witness.

Someone who is more up to speed with FOI requests may also have luck with the previously-noted Camden Council CCTV camera at Woburn Place/Coram Street. BBC News on the morning of the 8th featured some footage of the bus (with the later-erected screens in situ) that could have come from it (it was simply described as a "traffic camera"), but would have been operating at the limit of its range of vision, since obviously such cameras are intended to be used in their immediate vicinity, rather than something happening 240 metres away.

The two three-camera bus lane/traffic arrays on Upper Woburn Place are a bit of non-starter for the aforementioned footage, because they're fixed and - inevitably - pointing at the bus lane for oncoming traffic. The one facing north should have shown how full the bus was as it approached it, while the one facing south may have captured whoever was sitting on the back seat of the top deck.

Quote:
Do you think that giving the contract of London Underground security to an Israeli company called Verint in 2004 was justified or not?

That's impossible to say without knowing how the tendering process was conducted, and the bid put in by Verint and its competitor/s.
Quote:
Do you think knowing now all their shortcomings that the contract should be taken off them and given to a British company?

Firstly you would have to define "shortcomings," but also the legality of restricting the tendering to UK companies would need to be clarified. If Verint put in the "best" tender, they could well have sued if they had not been awarded the contract.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staraker wrote:
I note that BBC News the next morning showed mobile phone video footage shot by someone walking down Upper Woburn Place that shows smoke still in the air, the area full of people, and some of those on the top deck already standing up.

I dont remember this footage and it should be available from the internet archive
Staraker wrote:

Hasib Hussein not necessarily being one of them.

Bravo, Staraker.
There is no evidence that places Hasib Hussein in the bus. So the official story is untrue. You will also recall that there were reports from Stagecoach employees that the bus cctv was serviced the weekend prior to the bomb and this servicing was conducted by unfamiliar operatives and took a total of 20 hours. There is no excuse for the cctv not to be working if this report is true but also it gave an oportunity for explosives to be inserted into the bus.
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/july2005/150705busbombing.htm

There is a curious thing about the three asian lads from Leeds. As you know Leeds does not have a high asian population and is not a hotbed of radicalism. Why would young people with wives and pregnant girlfreinds commit suicide? They do not fit any profile of suicide bombers.
But they do fit the profile of community minded responsible citizens. Which is why they may have been recruited as part of M15's advertising campaign to recruit more ethnic minority staff or they may have applied for a gameshow like the one on BBC3 called spy.
Another theory is they may simply have been duped by agencies unknown. Maybe Mossad.

I agree with your analysis of the location and the cameras. There MUST be more cctv footage that has not been released. However did you agree that that exact spot appears to be well shielded from cctv cameras because of trees and surrouning buildings?

There was no open tender for the contract award. So it is in fact the companies who were excluded from the tender who could sue.
Luton is interesting because an office of ICTS (the Israeli security firm) is about a mile from a Thameslink station. ICTS is actually located in the Luton and Dunstable NHS Hospital. It seems a little odd that this firm that handles security for the Stansted airport would be located at the Hospital. Menachem Atzmon, convicted in Israel in 1996 for campaign finance fraud, and his business partner Ezra Harel, took over management of security at Boston's Logan Airport in 1999 through Huntleigh USA, a subsidiary of ICTS. Until his 1996 conviction, Atzmon was president of the Israel Development Fund (IDF), a U.S. tax-exempt foundation funneling money illegally to the Likud party of Sharon and Netanyahu, according to author Anton Chaitkin. Harel shares the name of Isser Harel, the co-founder of Israel's Mossad and first director of the Shin Bet, the internal security agency. Atzmon and Harel were majority owners of ICTS. The convicted Likud criminal's [Atzmon] firm was in charge of security at Logan Airport, Chaitkin wrote – inspecting the validity of passports and visas, searching cargo, screening passengers – when two airliners were hijacked from there on Sept. 11, 2001, and demolished the World Trade Center towers in New York. ICTS also provided security at Newark airport.
And guess where ICTS London office is?
Yes you guessed it Tavistock Square


PRESS RELEASE dated approximately March 2007 reproduced here for explanation as to the Israeli companies in charge of London Transport security. Verint/ICTS were the companies that Peter power was engaged by in his terror drill on 7th July. And these same companies coincidently were involved in 911 airport security. http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=5003&highlight=verin t


Two secretive companies entrusted, post-privatisation, with the safety of Londoners on the Underground system have since become embroiled in an insider trading, fraud and bribery trial in New York. A closer look shows some of the concerns that were raised, but put aside, during privatisation were actually justified, and suggests that, for the safety of Londoners, contracts with these businesses should immediately be terminated.

That is the topic of a report, prepared for the London branch of a campaign looking at terror attacks in the US and UK. It shows another side to the 2005 London bombs than that presented to press and public by the Sir Ian Blair and other government officials. It shows that security may have been compromised not only by terrorists, but by private firms that are supposed to protect Londoners from the terror threat. Under the spotlight are two companies, Verint Systems and their parent business, Comverse Technologies who were last month delisted from the New York NASDAQ index. Comverse’ Chief Executive is at the centre of a multi-million dollar fraud, money laundering and bribery scandal, has absconded, and is now facing extradition from Africa.

Because of the nature of the businesses, which have close ties to the police and intelligence services, information about these scandals has been difficult to uncover. There is a culture of complete trust in security firms and no-one wants to contemplate the enormous implications of their being found corrupt, or found to be working in the interests of private or foreign powers, and against those of both travelling public and underground staff. Verint’s PR people misrepresent the facts to talk up their own products, as evidenced by inaccurate statements on the London bombings by Verint’s Alan Roden.

But, the facts speak for themselves: businesses shrouded in double walls of secrecy due to ‘commercial confidentiality’ and ‘national security’, and entrusted with the safety of three million passengers a day on the London Underground have broken that covenant of trust. Metrolink Rail and the GLA, in the interests of safety, should terminate Verint Systems’ contract, and their security clearance access to the London Underground network immediately.

Comverse Technology – www.cmvt.com
Wiretapping, phone billing and mobile phone voicemail software developers. An Israeli company now at the centre of $8bn fraud enquiry in New York, Comverse share six directors with a wider network of linked companies also under investigation. Comverse took over the Hong Kong company Multivision Intelligence Surveillance Ltd. in January 2006 but the Comverse directors failed to file the financial information required by law. They were delisted from NASDAQ and suspended from stock trading on 1st February, 2007, because of financial mismanagement and non-filing of essential accounting information - along with Verint Systems who are now also NASDAQ delisted.

Verint Systems – www.verint.com
All activities of this business are directed by Comverse Technology who own 57% controlling stock. Two thirds of Verint’s business is security products used by law enforcement and intelligence services to intercept voice, video and email traffic, the other third is call centre monitoring and employee evaluation software. With approximately 1000 employees worldwide, they were awarded the contract for all London Underground’s CCTV in September, 2004, by the privatised 'Metronet Rail' who, in turn, have a 30 year contract from the UK government to manage London Underground security. Privatisation was imposed against the wishes of elected Greater London Authority (GLA) by Gordon Brown’s Treasury Department.

Verint CEO Daniel Bodner is a former senior Israeli army officer who gets $4m annual benefits (including salary). Verint currently being investigated by Office of Fair Trading (OFT) and Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) over proposed merger with Witness Systems Inc. for possible phone monitoring technology monopoly. Verint rumoured to be targeted by IBM for takeover.

Quote:
‘Nextiva Transit’ is Verint’s networked hi-tech CCTV system now being installed on ‘London Underground platforms and remote portions of track’.
The system is programmed to automatically ‘watch for people loitering on transit platforms or people wearing heavy coats on hot summer days’. Do the British people want this?

Verint spokesman Alan Roden was referring to London’s July 7th 2005 bombing claims when he told Michael Fickes, ‘video proved an effective investigation tool and highlights the value of networked video in mass transit systems’. A Government Security website article explained that using CCTV images ‘London police had discovered who was responsible and arrested many, if not all, of the perpetrators who remained alive.’ Quotes and articles such as this misrepresent the historical record: no CCTV image of any of the four alleged bombers on the London Underground on 7th July 2005 has been disclosed, neither were there any perpetrator arrests, as all four suspects allegedly blew themselves up.

Comverse’s directors
Jacob ‘Kobi’ Alexander, chief executive,
Target of FBI, Wall Street Journal and Securities & Exchange Commission fraud enquiry in New York, declared fugitive in August 2006. Wanted on 35 criminal counts including stock option backdating, conspiracy, securities fraud, money laundering and bribery. Arrested after 7 week manhunt in Namibia in September 2006. Travelling via. Israel he transferred $17m to Namibia, bought a luxury house and formed a new construction, tourism and agriculture company. Now building 200 low income homes for workers at the new ‘Langer Heinrich’ uranium mine. Alexander’s extradition hearing begins in Windhoek on April 25th 2007, he’s facing up to 20 years jail in New York. Known to be a close associate of former Chinese president Jiang Zmein.

David Kreinberg, chief financial officer
Turned state’s evidence, pleaded guilty and told New York FBI that Comverse CEO Alexander offered him financial inducements to take the rap for everything. CEO Jacob Alexander allegedly offered him $2m and he refused, offered him $5m and he still refused, then, according to Kreinberg, Alexander said “name your price”. To be sentenced February 23rd 2007.

William Sorin, company lawyer
Pleaded guilty. Paid $3.1 million fine at the end of 2006 as compensation for fraudulent activities. Permanent ban on acting as a company lawyer.

Conclusions
Roughly three million people a day use the London Underground network. Since privatisation, contracts are also shrouded in double walls of secrecy to protect both ‘national security’ and ‘commercial confidentiality’. But with that secrecy comes a caveat of absolute 100% trust and clear loyalty to the people of London who use the tube network. Instead what we find is a company with 24 hour access to the entire tube network is run by a senior ex Israeli army officer, whose former employers are engaged in a largely covert war against Arabs for land. His present employers are wanted on 40 plus criminal counts, implicated in multi-million dollar fraud and conspiracy and facing several long jail sentences.

Gathering this information has not been easy, because of the immense secrecy surrounding the security businesses involved. As a result tube staff & public are almost entirely unaware of this information. The covenant of trust required by all those who use and work on the tube has been broken. For the safety of all Londoners, we call for contracts with Verint Systems to be immediately suspended by Metronet Rail, the GLA or the Government pending a transparent investigation into Verint and parent company Comverse. Also control of the London Underground CCTV network must be wrested from those with close ties to the Israeli armed forces until the Middle East conflict is over.

References
http://www.creativemac.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=112636
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/24/business/24comverse.html
http://govtsecurity.com/mag/preventing_mass_transit/
http://news.tmcnet.com/news/2007/03/12/2408239.htm
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/060327/vrnt8-k.html
http://www.verint.com/corporate/releases_view.cfm?article_level1_categ ory_id=7&article_level1_id=724&pageno=1&year=2007

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Prole
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 632
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Staraker wrote:
I note that BBC News the next morning showed mobile phone video footage shot by someone walking down Upper Woburn Place that shows smoke still in the air, the area full of people, and some of those on the top deck already standing up.

I dont remember this footage and it should be available from the internet archive


http://youtube.com/watch?v=nuhBdHc8Nqs&mode=related&search=

_________________
'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
numeral
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 500
Location: South London

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prole wrote:
stelios wrote:
Staraker wrote:
I note that BBC News the next morning showed mobile phone video footage shot by someone walking down Upper Woburn Place that shows smoke still in the air, the area full of people, and some of those on the top deck already standing up.

I dont remember this footage and it should be available from the internet archive


http://youtube.com/watch?v=nuhBdHc8Nqs&mode=related&search=


The sniffer dog came in before the forensic officers, as might be expected.

_________________
Follow the numbers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This video only has a few seconds of mobile phone footage and that is from AFTER the other still photos. It is interspliced with news footage.
All the passers by had their phones and cameras confiscated. I guess the Met only released the images that dont say anything different or new.

what we should try and concentrate on is cantacting the known, named survivors and the known named witnesses and getting their recollections on record. Unless there is an inquiry or inquests those people may NEVER get their chance to tell their stories.
Assuming they exist.

Richmal Oates-Whitehead was employed by the BMJ the same publication that was pushing the case for TAPT. So one should not rush to accept their version on her. She has been discredited. But surely they are discredited for employing her without checking her qualifications?
And why disclose her confidential medical history surely thats illegal?
Who ever heard of a person that age dying of a clot?

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
This video only has a few seconds of mobile phone footage and that is from AFTER the other still photos. It is interspliced with news footage.

BBC News on the 8th showed this, but there was also a much longer version of the opening shot with the woman in red running out of shot, lasting some 12-13 seconds, compared to what's here, which is only around 4 second long. In the longer shot, the camera zooms in a bit more on the bus, where there is obvious movement on the top deck, while the smoke is still in the air. This times it as concurrent with the first of Matthew Rosenberg's pictures, but before the rest.
Quote:
All the passers by had their phones and cameras confiscated. I guess the Met only released the images that dont say anything different or new.

You keep claiming this. Please cite a reputable source that backs it up.
Quote:
what we should try and concentrate on is cantacting the known, named survivors and the known named witnesses and getting their recollections on record.

Assuming, of course, that they would want to deal with such non-official enquiries.
Quote:
Unless there is an inquiry or inquests those people may NEVER get their chance to tell their stories.

I've not seen any clear evidence that there will not be inquests, however common and long-standing practice shows that even the time that has elapse now cannot be counted as an unusual delay. Cf Reporter Terry Lloyd - killed in Iraq in March 2003, inquest verdict in October 2006.
Quote:
Assuming they exist.

Not being able to find something with limited resources does not mean that it does not exist. Cf. the "real" Richard Jones.
Quote:
Richmal Oates-Whitehead was employed by the BMJ the same publication that was pushing the case for TAPT. So one should not rush to accept their version on her.

Stop mis-representing things for you own purposes. In an medical article about blast injuries, the BMJ stated in passing what the police at the time were reporting, and speculatively at that. You're implying that the journal was making a judgement on it being TAPT over any other possibilities, which it wasn't.
Quote:
She has been discredited. But surely they are discredited for employing her without checking her qualifications?

People get all sorts of jobs in all sorts of sectors by lying about and forging their credentials. In any case, the job she was doing did not require her to be a qualified doctor. If it had, she would have been checked more thoroughly. It's a bit like someone with a criminal record going for a job that didn't require a CRB check.
Quote:
And why disclose her confidential medical history surely thats illegal?

There's no quoting of her "confidential medical history" - everything is either directly or probably annecdotal from people who met or knew her, including her childhood epilepsy. If you tell me or anyone else that you have been diagnosed as a having Crohn's disease, it is not "illegal" for me or to tell other people, as there is no bond of confidentiality between us.
Quote:
Who ever heard of a person that age dying of a clot?

It is rare, but it does happen. You really should stop talking in absolutes based more on what you don't know than what you do:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/412118.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5353630.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/sci_tech/newsid_3443000/3443143.stm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard Jones does not have anything to do with Compliance Technology Ltd.
4 Cannon Rd Court
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7QT
phone 01628 638324
Unless his name is Richard BLOOD
because that appeared to be the only Richard i could find.
But he might be employed as a freelance or working from home consultant. Feel free to ring them, i am sure he will agree to an interview as he seemed perfectly publicity hungry. Unusual for someone to call himself Dick these days. Ritchie is the more common use of Richard.
If Richard Blood is Richard Jones then i will personally give you a lift to Maidenhead and we can interview him together?

Staraker wrote:

BBC News on the 8th showed this, but there was also a much longer version of the opening shot with the woman in red running out of shot, lasting some 12-13 seconds, compared to what's here, which is only around 4 second long. In the longer shot, the camera zooms in a bit more on the bus, where there is obvious movement on the top deck, while the smoke is still in the air.

feel free to post this footage or the link unless you want us to take your word for it?

Quote:
Reporter Terry Lloyd - killed in Iraq in March 2003, inquest verdict in October 2006

Interesting example. Terry Lloyd was murdered by US soldiers. A long delay only occurs where there is obstruction.

Staraker wrote:
In an medical article about blast injuries, the BMJ stated in passing what the police at the time were reporting, and speculatively at that. You're implying that the journal was making a judgement on it being TAPT over any other possibilities, which it wasn't.

British Medical Journal wrote:
The bombs
Both bombs were homemade but of contrasting types. Police currently believe that each of the four London transport bombs contained less than 5 kg of the explosive TATP (triacetone triperoxide).3 This can be manufactured from scratch from over the counter products including bleach and acetone. By contrast, the Sharm-EI-Sheikh bombs are believed to have contained over 500 kg of "highly explosive material," most likely to be TNT (trinitrotoluene)4 reclaimed from military shells possibly dating back to the 1967 six day war between Egypt and Israel.

You call this stating in passing?
People presumably TRUST the BMJ and they are taking a view. This is not a throwaway article. Why the need to contrast Sharm El Sheikh?
Because Sharm El Sheikh has been proven to have been the Israelis themselves who did it. Remember? Cars with Israeli number plates driven over the most secure border in the world.

Quote:
People get all sorts of jobs in all sorts of sectors by lying about and forging their credentials. In any case, the job she was doing did not require her to be a qualified doctor. If it had, she would have been checked more thoroughly

Was she dismissed after they found out?
If so then it did make a difference.
You as a NHS employee, how can you be so relaxed about a woman who lost her twin babies, having her medical history spewed over the tabloids. Surely Data Protection Act rules apply? I am surprised you dont mind.
I remember your earlier comment that an M15 desk officer having blood on his hands is the same as a British Gas salesman selling a boiler to a pensioner.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Richard Jones does not have anything to do with Compliance Technology Ltd.
4 Cannon Rd Court
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7QT
phone 01628 638324
Unless his name is Richard BLOOD
because that appeared to be the only Richard i could find.

Where does the above come from, and how did you make the connection? Richard Jones the witness was stated in press reports as being 61 years old, from Adrossan in Scotland, and having served an apprenticeship in a munitions/explosives factory. The directory link below gives Dick Jones, educated at "Adrossan Academy" between 1949 and 1960. The dates are right for someone who would be 63 now, and there is an explosives factory in Ardrossan. It identifies him as "owner at Compliance Technology Limited":

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/b67/513

The link below gives the address of Compliance Technology Limited as:

TRIOS HOUSE
REFORM ROAD
MAIDENHEAD
BERKSHIRE
SL6 8BY

http://www.ukdata.com/company-credit-reports/COMPLIANCE-TECHNOLOGY-LIM ITED.html

However, it seems they chaged to trading under an acronym of "CTL (UK) LIMITED" at the same address:

http://www.ukdata.com/company-credit-reports/CTL-%28UK%29-LIMITED.html

We also have the apparently new company of "CTL Solar Limited" again at the same address:

https://www.ukdata.com/company-credit-reports/CTL-SOLAR-LIMITED.html

Googling Trios House in Maidenhead suggests it is a large office building in multiple occupation.

Quote:
But he might be employed as a freelance or working from home consultant. Feel free to ring them, i am sure he will agree to an interview as he seemed perfectly publicity hungry. Unusual for someone to call himself Dick these days. Ritchie is the more common use of Richard.

Unusual, but not not so much for someone of his generation.
Quote:
If Richard Blood is Richard Jones then i will personally give you a lift to Maidenhead and we can interview him together?

I don't think he is. In addition, this report from the Telegraph is interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2002/04/08/sobo wl09.xml

So there we have a Dick Jones, with an Ardrossan connection, connected to a bowls team in Maidenhead.

I'm not much interested in interviewing him, but for anyone who is, I think writing to him at Trios House would be a start.

Quote:
Staraker wrote:
BBC News on the 8th showed this, but there was also a much longer version of the opening shot with the woman in red running out of shot, lasting some 12-13 seconds, compared to what's here, which is only around 4 second long. In the longer shot, the camera zooms in a bit more on the bus, where there is obvious movement on the top deck, while the smoke is still in the air.

feel free to post this footage or the link unless you want us to take your word for it?
Quote:
Reporter Terry Lloyd - killed in Iraq in March 2003, inquest verdict in October 2006

Interesting example. Terry Lloyd was murdered by US soldiers. A long delay only occurs where there is obstruction.

I thought you'd appreciate the irony of the example, but one could look to other "non-contentious" deaths where the inquests took as long, e.g.:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6967319.stm (died Jan 2005, inquest Aug 2007 - 2 years 7 months)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6244256.stm (died Apr 2004, inquest Jun 2007 - 3 years 2 months)
Etc.

Quote:
Staraker wrote:
In an medical article about blast injuries, the BMJ stated in passing what the police at the time were reporting, and speculatively at that. You're implying that the journal was making a judgement on it being TAPT over any other possibilities, which it wasn't.

British Medical Journal wrote:
The bombs
Both bombs were homemade but of contrasting types. Police currently believe that each of the four London transport bombs contained less than 5 kg of the explosive TATP (triacetone triperoxide).3 This can be manufactured from scratch from over the counter products including bleach and acetone. By contrast, the Sharm-EI-Sheikh bombs are believed to have contained over 500 kg of "highly explosive material," most likely to be TNT (trinitrotoluene)4 reclaimed from military shells possibly dating back to the 1967 six day war between Egypt and Israel.

You call this stating in passing?

Yes, because it's not an article about what the bombs may or may not have been. It's a bit like detailing the exact make and models of cars involved in RTA in an article about related injuries. The writers would not be in the business of second guessing whatever the police informed them what the vehicle were, would they?
Quote:
People presumably TRUST the BMJ and they are taking a view. This is not a throwaway article. Why the need to contrast Sharm El Sheikh?
Because Sharm El Sheikh has been proven to have been the Israelis themselves who did it. Remember? Cars with Israeli number plates driven over the most secure border in the world.

I would imagine the very obvious reasons is that both bombs resulted in people - either directly or indirectly - being treated by British medical personnel. For example, it would not be unreasonable to expect that a British-based article written about air crash injuries might draw on the recent crash in Thailand, in light of British injured being repatriated to be treated here.
Quote:
Quote:
People get all sorts of jobs in all sorts of sectors by lying about and forging their credentials. In any case, the job she was doing did not require her to be a qualified doctor. If it had, she would have been checked more thoroughly

Was she dismissed after they found out?
If so then it did make a difference.

It seems that she was.
Quote:
You as a NHS employee, how can you be so relaxed about a woman who lost her twin babies, having her medical history spewed over the tabloids. Surely Data Protection Act rules apply? I am surprised you dont mind.

There are doubts as to whether she had any babies at all. The fact is, however, that it is not illegal for a newspaper to report information that is already in the public domain. If they said, "We have secured her medical records, and...." it would be a very different and serious matter. Coming back to inquests, such information often comes out at that stage and can be legitimately reported.
Quote:
I remember your earlier comment that an M15 desk officer having blood on his hands is the same as a British Gas salesman selling a boiler to a pensioner.

And?


Last edited by Nick Cooper on Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Prole
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 632
Location: London UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staraker wrote:
stelios wrote:

All the passers by had their phones and cameras confiscated. I guess the Met only released the images that dont say anything different or new.

You keep claiming this. Please cite a reputable source that backs it up.

In Thomas Ikimi's film Homefront he interviews Graham Cross of the Met who does say that they confiscated mobile camera phones. I'm not sure if it's mentioned in this clip:

http://web.mac.com/themerc01/THE_HOMEFRONT_MOVIE/MEDIA/Pages/London_Me t_Police.html

_________________
'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It identifies him as owner at Compliance Technology Limited

The actual owners are:
Barry Summers
Mark Hipgrave
Richard Blood
Georgina Hipgrave
David Hughes

So there is no Richard / Dick Jones listed as owner or partner.
Blood is a Scottish name, however, so it may be him. Just didnt want to give out his real name to the press maybe?

The Indian guy Sapna who presumably is the person pulled from the wreckage. Curious how his account was not reported even though the photo appears to be like a miraculous escape. I think i read he was from Harrow?

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Quote:
It identifies him as owner at Compliance Technology Limited

The actual owners are:
Barry Summers
Mark Hipgrave
Richard Blood
Georgina Hipgrave
David Hughes

So there is no Richard / Dick Jones listed as owner or partner.

Do I take it you're going on Companies House records? If not, where does the above come from? The directory listing has the "Owner Compliance Technology Limited" dated as "February 2007 — Present (8 months)".
Quote:
Blood is a Scottish name, however, so it may be him. Just didnt want to give out his real name to the press maybe?

Maybe, but that doesn't make sense in the context of the "Dick Jones" directory entry. That on its own wouldn't be totally suspiscious, but in conjunction with the Telegraph article, it's fairly strong evidence that there "is" a Dick Jones. People love pointing out the unlikely "coincidences," but there can't be that many Dick Joneses connected to both Ardrossan and Maidenhead, of what would seem to be the right age!
Quote:
The Indian guy Sapna who presumably is the person pulled from the wreckage. Curious how his account was not reported even though the photo appears to be like a miraculous escape. I think i read he was from Harrow?

I don't think it's "curious" at all. As I've said before, not everyone's first inclination is to sell - or even give - their story to the media. It certainly wouldn't be mine.


Last edited by Nick Cooper on Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what you are saying but the fact remains that these people were important eye witnesses to an event that have been used by people to impose facist laws on all of us. Some of those people may disagree with them some may agree.
But the fact remains this year there was no media coverage of the anniversary, there is no inquiry and there are not follow up interviews with any of the survivors.
I am not saying they dont exist, but where are all of them, surely some of them will be reading stuff like this on tinternet and wanting to express their opinions, surely some of them would appear on daytime tv reliving the day when they survived a near death experience?
But i have not seen nor heard any of them.
Concentrate on the named bus survivors and then the named witnesses such as the traffic warden, the bus driver, etc.
Where has everyone disappeared to?
Richard Jones - IT consultant. Presumably he would want people to hire him so he should make it easy for people to contact him.
He does not own Compliance Technology so if he is consistent he appears to be a fantasist. He may be a bowls player which means we can go and watch a bowls game and speak to him afterwards.
But my view is that like many others from that day they are either actors or spooks or ghosts.
None of them are on friends reunited or facebook
None of them are in the BT or 118118.com phonebooks
None of them are traceable on the web
Electoral Role search has not been tried yet i dont think but
Dont you find that strange that not one of them seems to easy to find?

and for comparison
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706913.stm
discredited witnesses?
Quote:

Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

"The man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door"

Londoner Dan Copeland was in the carriage in which the man was shot.

He told BBC News: "We were sitting for a few minutes on the platform, then we heard shouting from the concourse between the two platforms.

"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.

"An officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody out!'

"People just froze in their seats cowering for a few seconds and then leapt up.

"As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs.

"I ran past an armed officer who was standing on the platform and ran up the stairs."
1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

does anyone recall the mobile phone network went down on 7/7?
so how does that explain the pictures of people making phone calls?
Staraker suggested that people were phoning for help like ambulances in that large picture, but if the mobile network was down how can that be?
It brings us back to the possibilty that the picture is a montage.
yes we would expect to see people making phone calls, survivors especially having just escaped death phoning loved ones to inform them.
Why did the mobile network go down that day?
i recall something about blocking people from TRIGGERING off bombs by sim cards
so how does that explain the people talking on their phones walking past the number 30 bus?
Yet another anomaly perhaps.
Or is it like the people on 911 getting signals on their mobile phones 30,000ft in the air.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
I agree with what you are saying but the fact remains that these people were important eye witnesses to an event that have been used by people to impose facist laws on all of us. Some of those people may disagree with them some may agree.
But the fact remains this year there was no media coverage of the anniversary, there is no inquiry and there are not follow up interviews with any of the survivors.
I am not saying they dont exist, but where are all of them, surely some of them will be reading stuff like this on tinternet and wanting to express their opinions, surely some of them would appear on daytime tv reliving the day when they survived a near death experience?
But i have not seen nor heard any of them.
Concentrate on the named bus survivors and then the named witnesses such as the traffic warden, the bus driver, etc.
Where has everyone disappeared to?
Richard Jones - IT consultant. Presumably he would want people to hire him so he should make it easy for people to contact him.

People might think so, but it ain't necessarily true in the real world. My brother does consultancy work in engineering, yet a Google of him and the company he works for returns a big fat total of 9 hits, which is hardly impressive.
Quote:
He does not own Compliance Technology so if he is consistent he appears to be a fantasist.

Sorry to repeat myself, but you still haven't disclosed your source of information on who owns CTL. Given that the Jones directory entry only claims ownership from February this year, I think it is important to be clear what your source is and how up to date it is.
Quote:
He may be a bowls player which means we can go and watch a bowls game and speak to him afterwards.
But my view is that like many others from that day they are either actors or spooks or ghosts.
None of them are on friends reunited or facebook

Well, I'm not on the latter, for that matter.
Quote:
None of them are in the BT or 118118.com phonebooks

I'm ex-directory.
Quote:
None of them are traceable on the web

Unfortunately, I can't say that for myself!
Quote:
Electoral Role search has not been tried yet i dont think

Hasn't anyone forked out for a www.192.com subscription?
Quote:
but Dont you find that strange that not one of them seems to easy to find?

I think it depends on how you define "easy". If all people have been relying on is directory enquiries, then that's flawed from the beginning, since it seems that 48% of landlines are ex-directory:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5168570.stm

With that high a number, someone being ex-directory in itself cannot be viewed as "suspicious," but it also stands to reason that some people who were identified as witnesses may have chosen to go ex-dir afterwards.

Quote:
and for comparison
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4706913.stm
discredited witnesses?
Quote:

Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man appeared to be wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

"The man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door"

Londoner Dan Copeland was in the carriage in which the man was shot.

He told BBC News: "We were sitting for a few minutes on the platform, then we heard shouting from the concourse between the two platforms.

"Then the man burst in through the door to my right and grabbed hold of the pole and a person by the glass partition near the door, diagonally opposite me.

"An officer jumped on the door to my left and screamed, 'Everybody out!'

"People just froze in their seats cowering for a few seconds and then leapt up.

"As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs.

"I ran past an armed officer who was standing on the platform and ran up the stairs."
1: Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street
2: One person says the man vaulted the automatic ticket barriers as he made his way to the platforms
3: The most direct route is via this escalator or the staircase that sits alongside it
4: Police challenge the man but he apparently refuses to obey instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead


I'm always very much reminded of that TV advert that The Guardian ran years ago, showing the same "incident" shot from various angles. The first shows a man in a business suit walking along a pavement; a stereotypical skinhead appears and it seems tries to wrench the man's briefcase off him. The final shot shows the full picture: that the suited man was walking past a building site, and above him a stack bricks was about to fall on him; the skinhead, seeing this, runs along the pavement and - after a struggle - manages to push him out of the way.

The moral of this is is that people will describe what they see, but if it is an incomplete picture, they will make assumptions and "fill out" their version with what they learn later. For example, it's fairly obvious now that people who described de Menezes being, "chased by police and vaulting the barriers," actually saw whichever cop was in the lead, who jumped the barrier first. This is the sort of thing that gets sorted out in court, where someone will be asked to describe the "suspect" they saw running down the street, only to be told when they do that, "You have just given a perfect description of Detective Constable Plod."

That's not to say that all the "witnesses" are necessarily innocently telling what they think to be the truth, but them describing something that could not possibly be true cannot be automatically be assumed to be "sinister."

Quote:
does anyone recall the mobile phone network went down on 7/7?
The system was overloaded, rather than down. I was receiving both texts and phone calls, as well as being able to get calls through to the mobile of friends who were in London throughout the day.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staraker wrote:

Quote:
does anyone recall the mobile phone network went down on 7/7?
The system was overloaded, rather than down. I was receiving both texts and phone calls, as well as being able to get calls through to the mobile of friends who were in London throughout the day.

So i guess we will take your word for it?
I recall that no calls could be made that morning for several hours
are you going to take my word for it?

i have listed the company phone number for Compliance, you can call them yourself and ask to speak to Dick Jones and ask him how he described in graphic detail Hasib Hussein's designer underpants to the worlds media.
01628 638324

everyone is traceable ESPECIALLY an IT consultant so isnt it strange he is not. Another curious thing is the bus survivors have not come forward themselves to put a stop to all those nutty tinternet rantings going on in their names. They could post anon. surely they would want to set the record straight?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Rudi Guiliani was in London on the 7th of July to speak at an Israeli conference about investment in Africa and the Israeli stock market. Nethanayu was due to attend the same conference but recieved the warning. Guliani seemed to be in the right place on 911 as well NOT in his bunker in WTC7

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Staraker wrote:

Quote:
does anyone recall the mobile phone network went down on 7/7?
The system was overloaded, rather than down. I was receiving both texts and phone calls, as well as being able to get calls through to the mobile of friends who were in London throughout the day.

So i guess we will take your word for it?

I know what I remember. More to the point, some of it I mentioned in a Usenet posting the following day:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.transport.london/msg/b618e51ffe644 3b5

I also know that once I got home, almost immediately got in contact with three friends working in London, and I only had (and still have) their mobile numbers, not their work numbers.

Quote:
I recall that no calls could be made that morning for several hours
are you going to take my word for it?

Maybe you were just unlucky with whatever network you were using.

Quote:
i have listed the company phone number for Compliance, you can call them yourself and ask to speak to Dick Jones and ask him how he described in graphic detail Hasib Hussein's designer underpants to the worlds media.
01628 638324

I'm not much into cold-calling. And you still haven't said where you got your information from and how up to date it is.
Quote:
everyone is traceable ESPECIALLY an IT consultant so isnt it strange he is not. Another curious thing is the bus survivors have not come forward themselves to put a stop to all those nutty tinternet rantings going on in their names. They could post anon. surely they would want to set the record straight?

That presupposes they are actually are aware, and if they are, whether they think it worth bothering with. Many people who do not use the internet seem to regard it is a scary and hostile place, full of "nutty" people. Even if people are talking about them specifically, a witness may just think their speculation is worthless and doesn't need addressing. It will be interesting, however, to see if Obachike's book draws Richard Jones - whichever one he turns out to be - into the open, if only to sue for libel (note that that does not necessarily assume such a suit would be justified - cf. Jeffrey Archer).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Staraker wrote:

Quote:
does anyone recall the mobile phone network went down on 7/7?
The system was overloaded, rather than down. I was receiving both texts and phone calls, as well as being able to get calls through to the mobile of friends who were in London throughout the day.

So i guess we will take your word for it?

I know what I remember. More to the point, some of it I mentioned in a Usenet posting the following day:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.transport.london/msg/b618e51ffe644 3b5

I also know that once I got home, almost immediately got in contact with three friends working in London, and I only had (and still have) their mobile numbers, not their work numbers.

Quote:
I recall that no calls could be made that morning for several hours
are you going to take my word for it?

Maybe you were just unlucky with whatever network you were using.

Quote:
i have listed the company phone number for Compliance, you can call them yourself and ask to speak to Dick Jones and ask him how he described in graphic detail Hasib Hussein's designer underpants to the worlds media.
01628 638324

I'm not much into cold-calling. And you still haven't said where you got your information from and how up to date it is.
Quote:
everyone is traceable ESPECIALLY an IT consultant so isnt it strange he is not. Another curious thing is the bus survivors have not come forward themselves to put a stop to all those nutty tinternet rantings going on in their names. They could post anon. surely they would want to set the record straight?

That presupposes they are actually are aware, and if they are, whether they think it worth bothering with. Many people who do not use the internet seem to regard it is a scary and hostile place, full of "nutty" people. Even if people are talking about them specifically, a witness may just think their speculation is worthless and doesn't need addressing. It will be interesting, however, to see if Obachike's book draws Richard Jones - whichever one he turns out to be - into the open, if only to sue for libel (note that that does not necessarily assume such a suit would be justified - cf. Jeffrey Archer).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staraker must we argue about everything?
It was reported on every tv and radio network that several mobile phone base stations were TAKEN OUT OF SERVICE by the police because they wanted to prevent detonations by sim cards.

The story was later changed to the police took down the base stations because they themselves use GPRS for communications which relies on mobile base stations and they wanted the networks to only allow PRIOTY usuage such as police, ambulance and fire brigade.

Either way i am sure the J7 guys will confirm that.

ok the issue of cold calling is not a problem nobody has been able to track down any of these witnesses. In this case, in the De Menezes case there was a guy called Anthony Larkin who was untraceable other than there was a man of the same name who worked as a forensic examiner for the police. People have tried to trace John Smeaton the have a go hero as well to no avail.
Surely you cant be expecting us to believe that all of them are in witness protection or all of them gave false names to the papers.
Let me give you the example of rachel the woman who has appeared on tv and the newspapers as a campaigner for a public inquiry. She is real, she exists and has a work history, school history and bt listing and everything one would expect someone to have.
So why dont any of the survivors or any of the witnesses have what the vast majority of normal people have?

And allow me to remind everyone. When the wife of one of the alleged criminals demanded an autopsy and an inquest she was arrested as were her family and held presumably as a warning to drop it.

_________________


Last edited by karlos on Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the benefit of all our readers i have listed the posts from the Usernet discussion from the 8/7/2005
Like me i think you will find it eye opening.
Aparantly the Picadilly line was closed from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross due to a fire at Caledonian Road.
This was at 08.30.
So how did a train manage to get to Russel Square to blow up at 08.50


Second thing that some of the posters have said is they recieved texts from TFL at 08.25 to warn them of disruption and to make alternative arangements.
This certainly saved lives but also implies PRIOR KNOWLEDGE

quotes
I've been pondering on what seemed wrong about my journey yesterday, and the time of events doesn't make sense unless London Underground had suspicions something was amiss. I arrived at Wood Green station at 8:30 to discover it was locked and a notice saying the service was suspended between Arnos Grove and Kings Cross.
Yet the Piccadilly line bomb was at 08:50 ?!

I received a text alert at from TfL at 08:25 announcing services were badly disrupted due to a train failure at Caledonian Road. To be honest that was probably the case, if they had suspected that was the case I'm pretty sure
they would have suspended the whole service.

Similarly there were separate and unrelated problems with trains at Balham and Piccadilly Circus on the Northern and Bakerloo Lines that were causing their own problems.

You seem to be implying that LU knew something and did not act appropriately. I think it is inappropriate to let speculation and hindsight take over. The immediate symptoms shown in control rooms indicated power loss and power network problems. Aldgate is close to a major power system node so the immediate "logical assessment" of power system problems made sense and this is why the early reports said what they said. It was only a little later that it became clear that it was a series of bomb attacks along the Northern edge of the central London
tube network. Once that was clear the full security process was invoked. Certainly our internal message system changed to "network emergency" rather than "power failure".

Who knows, the closure of the northern end of the Piccadilly line may well have saved lives.

It was rather stunning to hear Tessa Jowell admit about half an hour ago that none of the 49 dead have been officially identified yet.

At the press conference today it was categorically stated that all three Underground bomb went off within - IIRC - a 50 second time-frame. They showed screen-grabs from the Circle line software showing train positions at various stages/times. If someone's Mobile phone footage is being shown with differing time, I suspect the problem is more that the clock on their phone is wrong!

This is very odd to me. I can understand two blasts reported within five minutes initially being treated as distinct times due to initial confusion. But 20 minutes? Anyone on their way to work knows the difference between "a little before 9" and a "quarter past 9".... it's the difference between getting to work on time and having to come up
with a valid excuse. I wonder if any survivors have been interviewed with respect to the time they recall their train stopping?

Even with the change in reported timeline, you still only need 2 guys to do all this damage. One guy gets on at King's Cross, rides a stop and drops a package on Circle line eastbound, gets off, grabs a Circle Line going westbound for one stop, drops a package and gets off at King's Cross .... he would even have time for the bus. The Picadilly Line would have to be a second person because of the timing. He would certainly have time to get the bus also.

I am making an assumption the Circle Line bombs were not merely dropped by the doors because you have too many stops for someone to become suspicious and possibly remove the package. Since they were relatively small, I think it is possible they were placed under a seat. The seats do lift - the IRA planted at least one bomb under the seat of a train. Subsequently the seats were "secured" closed with a tamper evident security loop.

How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning? If the former, it's extremely unlikely. If the latter, it's very likely. (Noting that perhaps one in six trains on the tracks are likely to be Circle rather than Metropolitan or H&C

Here's what I'm still confused by... assume they really had separate bombers for each bomb.... seems like a long time before boarding the Piccadilly Line.
I'm guessing they synchronized the timers BEFORE they got on the trains. Probably around 8:31 for 20 minutes or 8:36 for 15 minutes. That would have been while they were all standing together on the Kings Cross platform. That explains the Circle Line bombs.

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train? Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived? I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45 seconds outside of the station.

The service had been suspended on the Piccadilly line immediately prior to the bomb, due to a fire alert incident at Caledonian Road.

There is also CCTV equipment with cameras in all the cars on the newer trains. This could possibly provide vital information following an incident, especially when that incident is on the train or following the trail of a suspect. However, On the Northern Line, a large percent of the equipment is faulty and has been for a long while with no urgency to rectify it, so it's unlikely that it would be of any help.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
numeral
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 500
Location: South London

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Richard Barnes (Chair): You also talked about ensuring that those that need to be able to communicate with each other can communicate with each other, which is the access overload issue, I would assume. How does that work?

Mark Hughes (Group Security Director, BT): BT does not provide that service.

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): Shall I pick that one up? The access overload scheme is run by the Cabinet Office in conjunction with the five mobile network operators. It allows authorised users within the scheme to have unrestricted use of mobile networks, in the event that networks are congested and there is a problem with communicating across the various emergency responders. We have a protocol by which access overload can be requested by a police force normally and we have a protocol by which we authenticate that request to make sure that it comes from a valid officer in the force making the request. On 7 July, we received a request from City of London Police to invoke access overload in a 1 km radius of Aldgate East. We carried out our due diligence and authenticated that request. Finding it to be a valid request, we did the preparatory work and brought in access overload, which restricts the network to use by only those people who are authorised. That went on just after midday and was taken off round about quarter to five in the afternoon.

Richard Barnes (Chair): Why was that asked for? It sounds like a daft question.

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): That would be a question to ask the City of London Police. It is not our business to ask that question.

Richard Barnes (Chair): You only validate who asks for it, not why?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): Indeed, not why.

Richard Barnes (Chair): Once you institute it in that kilometre around Aldgate East, only those who had a particular Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card could then access the system.

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): Indeed, yes.

Richard Barnes (Chair): Now, we heard at our last evidentiary session that the Gold Group for London, which controlled the emergency response, shall we say, had not asked for access overload to be declared across the system. Would this be City of London Police acting on its own?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): I think again
that is a question to refer to City of London police.

Richard Barnes (Chair): I will do. Do not worry.

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): In hindsight, it certainly appears that way. The protocol requires that we check with the requesting force, not with Gold Command. It is a result of this that we have requested or suggested to the Cabinet Office that the protocol be changed so that the request is verified with Gold Command, rather than the requesting force. That is something that undoubtedly they will be looking at in their review of access overload.

Richard Barnes (Chair): It is the individual force at the moment – so that could happen anywhere in the country?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): Indeed, yes.

Richard Barnes (Chair): The local force as against the Gold Command could ask for it at the moment?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): It only becomes a problem where an incident crosses police force boundaries.

Richard Barnes (Chair): Yes, but there are three police forces that were active on the day.

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): Indeed.
Richard Barnes (Chair): Were you the only network that applied access overload?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): We were.

Richard Barnes (Chair): Did Vodafone do it?

Michael Strefford (Head of Technology Policy, Security and Assurance, Vodafone): At no time in the day were we requested.

Richard Barnes (Chair): What impact would it have on you if O2 had gone to access overload in a specific area?

Michael Strefford (Head of Technology Policy, Security and Assurance,
Vodafone): Effectively, it would not have changed our situation. O2 customers are not able to access the Vodafone network so the traffic would not have moved onto the Vodafone network.

Richard Barnes (Chair): Okay. It only affects O2 customers?

Michael Strefford (Head of Technology Policy, Security and Assurance,
Vodafone): Correct.

Richard Barnes (Chair): The impact on them is that they cannot use their phone in that area?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): That is right.

Joanne McCartney (AM): This may be a question that you do not think you can answer but City of London Police asked you to invoke access overload. We know if it is Gold Command there is a partnership of agencies that make that decision jointly. I take it the dangers with this thing was that there was one part of the emergency services asking for it. I suppose you do not know whether the other partner agencies were involved in that decision or not. Is that the concern?

David Sutton (Network Continuity and Restoration Manager, O2): It is a concern, which is why I suggested to the Cabinet Office that the protocol should be reviewed because clearly on the day for Gold Command to have a different view from one of the forces was not a satisfactory solution.


7 July Review Committee – transcript of hearing on 1 December 2005

_________________
Follow the numbers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Staraker must we argue about everything?

I'm not "arguing," I'm just saying what I know happened in my case, which is partially corroborated by a Usenet message I posted the very next day. No matter what you say, there is no way I could have contacted my friends - and them contacted me - except by mobiles.
Quote:
It was reported on every tv and radio network that several mobile phone base stations were TAKEN OUT OF SERVICE by the police because they wanted to prevent detonations by sim cards.

This - like so many oft-cited "facts" - seems to be supposition at the time that has become entrenched through nothing more than repetition.

Quote:
The story was later changed to the police took down the base stations because they themselves use GPRS for communications which relies on mobile base stations and they wanted the networks to only allow PRIOTY usuage such as police, ambulance and fire brigade.

The transcript quoted by numeral suggests that what shut-down was requested was restricted to a very small area. It wouldn't of affected my friends in South Kensington, Euston and near Warren Sreet respectively.

Quote:
ok the issue of cold calling is not a problem nobody has been able to track down any of these witnesses. In this case, in the De Menezes case there was a guy called Anthony Larkin who was untraceable other than there was a man of the same name who worked as a forensic examiner for the police. People have tried to trace John Smeaton the have a go hero as well to no avail.
Surely you cant be expecting us to believe that all of them are in witness protection or all of them gave false names to the papers.

No, because I never suggested such a thing. It strikes me that if all people have been doing is checking phone directories and doing superficially tests on the internet, there are a mass of people who would not be "found". My sister has a very unusual name combination due to marriage, yet Googling it does not produce anything that relates to, and she is ex-directory. By your standards she must not exist.
Quote:
Let me give you the example of rachel the woman who has appeared on tv and the newspapers as a campaigner for a public inquiry. She is real, she exists and has a work history, school history and bt listing and everything one would expect someone to have.
So why dont any of the survivors or any of the witnesses have what the vast majority of normal people have?

You can't say that until you find them.
Quote:
And allow me to remind everyone. When the wife of one of the alleged criminals demanded an autopsy and an inquest she was arrested as were her family and held presumably as a warning to drop it.

Cite?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

according to your usenet post you were in bounds green so outside the affected zone
what about the usenet comments that suggest tfl sent general warnings at 0825?
what about the usenet comments that say MAJOR closures and other anomalies. The southbound picadilly line train would have been virtually empty. It was closed from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross. There was a 'fire' at Cally Road.
When is there ever a fire on the underground?
But that means the Southbound train would have STARTED at Kings x and blown up at Russel Square. It would be virtually empty which meant far less than normal casualties.
They also claim correctly that the circle line is shared with other lines and that they alternate trains. So a circle line train would only be one in four of the trains heading east.
One passenger mentions that NONE of the dead had been identified - yet the identity of all four alleged bombers was known. How can that be so?

As these are actual accounts by regular passengers posted the next day BEFORE any wider shortcomings in the official story have come to light i think they are quite useful to promote further.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
conspiracy analyst
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter


Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 2151

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was outside Finsbury Park Station must have been at around 8.50am getting ready to drop someone off when I got a phone call from abroad telling me bombs had gone off in London. I switched over to LBC and heard that there was some type of power surge on London Underground.

Finsbury Park at that time was close around 9.00am.

We then left the area and went to Enfield. By around 10.30am till the afternoon my phone netword wasn't working. I was on O2 at the time. Everyone around me and there were many people had no connection either.

No texts were being received either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
conspiracy analyst
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter


Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 2151

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its funny cos the companies that run Glasgow Airport BAA was recently sold to a Spanish Conglomerate.

The Company which they have trading in the UK is called Amey. They are the main stakeholder in Gordon Browns Private Finance Initiative.

This means they control most of the Underground in repairs.

Its funny cos when 'terrorist' events occur companies are related across borders which manage crucial parts of the infrastructure...

Quote:
Services
Ferrovial focuses on three areas of this industry – urban services, for example, street cleaning and local waste collection and processing; facility management and infrastructure maintenance.

Ferrovial has contracts in Spain, Portugal and the UK. In the UK, it works through its subsidiary, Amey which focuses on infrastructure maintenance (roads, railways and the underground network) and facility management. Amey is also one of the most experienced companies in the field of private sector development and financing of infrastructure and services for government under the Private Public Partnership (PPP) and Private Finance Initiatives (PFI) schemes.


http://www.amey.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Skeptic
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 485

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staraker is right about the mobile networks.

My Dad, thanks to his persistance, managed to send me 3 texts between 9am and midday. He was near King's Cross.

_________________
UK-based alternative news site:
http://www.underthecarpet.co.uk

HipHop:
http://www.myspace.com/skepticandjidsames
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is a power surge anyway?
Surely if you think about it in laymans terms - a fuse somewhere would blow.
London underground used to make it's own electric until Red Ken decided to buy it off French company EDF instead, how does a power surge occur in an electrified system which has been running for over 100 years.
Transformers, capacitors, company fuses, etc would ensure only the correct voltage would hit the lines.
Power FAILURE is far more likely.
But the fact is TFL from BEFORE the bombs went off did it's best to ensure very few people were on those trains.
As has been widely reported Saudi Arabian security services tipped off the police prior to the London bombs.
The Israelis also were forewarned as proven by their warning to their embassy.
So it is highly likely that the Met and British Transport Police knew and without issuing the same warning issued other alerts such as text messages to passengers and radio announcements as well as station closures.
So leaving aside possible allegations of collusion. The evidence is overwhelming that the UK authorities had prior knowledge and ALLOWED the carnage to go ahead.

Terror drills staged the same day involving the same stations and simultaneous bombs. Totally discredited Israeli companies in charge of security for London Underground.
A lack of traceable witnesses.
No corroberating evidence supporting the offical story.

It has been proven beyond doubt that the alleged bombers could not have arrived outside Luton staion at 07.22 and successfully been at the detonation points at 08.50. We also have to consider the story/version that the bomber was in the McDonalds and trying to call his buddies on his mobile unable to get through. Bearing in mind that mobiles dont work on the tube some base stations were also taken out of service.

Unless cctv footage is produced proving the bombers were in London that day there is no proof they were even involved. But there is the alternative issue that the authorities had prior knowledge and yet chose not to act to prevent the deaths instead chose to control the number of casualties and minimise the collateral damage.
Which makes them equally guilty.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skeptic wrote:
Staraker is right about the mobile networks.

My Dad, thanks to his persistance, managed to send me 3 texts between 9am and midday. He was near King's Cross.


I am not saying he is wrong. But the City of London police THEMSELVES admitted asking a number of base stations to be taken down. So a call from say Enfield to Wembley would have gone through normally. But a call near the bomb sites would not have gone through.
Even on New Years eve at midnight some texts get through and most dont. You have to start sending them at least 15 minutes before hand to be sure.
But the picture of people walking past the blown up bus talking on their mobiles is called into question if there was no service at that time.
Notwithstanding the other issue that none of the witnesses have been traced. It has been suggested that the picture is a montage. And if the mobile phone question is validated then that is yet another anomaly.
TfL said although the trains were not directly affected power was lost to systems such as escalators and CCTV


http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Australia/andrew.htm
this site says stuff about 7/7

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
according to your usenet post you were in bounds green so outside the affected zone

Judging from what numeral posted, the affected zone was only 3.14 square kilometres.
Quote:
what about the usenet comments that suggest tfl sent general warnings at 0825?

No, someone said specifically: "I received a text alert at from TfL at 08:25 announcing services were badly disrupted due to a train failure at Caladonian Road." That's not "general" and it's not a "warning" in the sense I suspect you're trying to suggest.
Quote:
what about the usenet comments that say MAJOR closures and other anomalies.

There were failures on other lines that morning. I would not describe them as "anomalies," as such multiple failures are not uncommon.
Quote:
The southbound picadilly line train would have been virtually empty. It was closed from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross. There was a 'fire' at Cally Road.
When is there ever a fire on the underground?

It was a "fire alert" and after King's Cross they are always taken seriously. They are also far common than you are suggesting.
Quote:
But that means the Southbound train would have STARTED at Kings x and blown up at Russel Square. It would be virtually empty which meant far less than normal casualties.

The fire alert at Caledonian Road related to an eastbound at around 07:57, which resulted in services being suspended between King's Corss and Arnos Grove. There will already have been trains "in the system" at various points along that section, in both directions, that were detrained at other stations. Services resumed at 08:28. It has been said that the bomb was on the first train to run through from Arnos Grove once services were resumed, and certainly under normal circumstaces it does take around 20 minutes to get from there to King's Cross.
Quote:
They also claim correctly that the circle line is shared with other lines and that they alternate trains. So a circle line train would only be one in four of the trains heading east.

They don't alternate equally. I don't use the sub-surface lines much, but from memory there are two or more circle line trains for every H&C one on the appropriate shared section, for example.
Quote:
One passenger mentions that NONE of the dead had been identified - yet the identity of all four alleged bombers was known. How can that be so?

There is nothing in the discussion that suggests the bombers had been identified at that stage. In fact, most of the speculation is about whether it would take one or more bombers to have carried out that number of attacks.
Quote:
As these are actual accounts by regular passengers posted the next day BEFORE any wider shortcomings in the official story have come to light i think they are quite useful to promote further.

Most of it is pure speculation on the part of various people, myself included. You should be careful in separating that out from what facts people actually mention.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
What is a power surge anyway?
Surely if you think about it in laymans terms - a fuse somewhere would blow.
London underground used to make it's own electric until Red Ken decided to buy it off French company EDF instead, how does a power surge occur in an electrified system which has been running for over 100 years.

LU's Lotts Road power station was closed in October 2002, at which time it provide 60% of the system's power, the rest coming from the National Grid. It's closure, however, was down to Metronet - of which EDF is a shareholder - getting the PPP contract, which resulted in major changes to the supply set-up. Ken, of course, was hardly in favour of the whole PPP thing in the first place, so for to ascribe the "blame" to him as you do is highly misleading.
Quote:
Transformers, capacitors, company fuses, etc would ensure only the correct voltage would hit the lines.
Power FAILURE is far more likely.

You have a short memory:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4557129.stm

Quote:
But the fact is TFL from BEFORE the bombs went off did it's best to ensure very few people were on those trains.
As has been widely reported Saudi Arabian security services tipped off the police prior to the London bombs.
The Israelis also were forewarned as proven by their warning to their embassy.
So it is highly likely that the Met and British Transport Police knew and without issuing the same warning issued other alerts such as text messages to passengers and radio announcements as well as station closures.

Amazing. You extrapolate all that from one person getting a text alert about a specific incident at a specific station. Why not sign up yourself, and you'll see how often you get them:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravelnews/mobileservices/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nick Cooper
Suspended
Suspended


Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stelios wrote:
Skeptic wrote:
Staraker is right about the mobile networks.

My Dad, thanks to his persistance, managed to send me 3 texts between 9am and midday. He was near King's Cross.


I am not saying he is wrong. But the City of London police THEMSELVES admitted asking a number of base stations to be taken down. So a call from say Enfield to Wembley would have gone through normally. But a call near the bomb sites would not have gone through.
Even on New Years eve at midnight some texts get through and most dont. You have to start sending them at least 15 minutes before hand to be sure.
But the picture of people walking past the blown up bus talking on their mobiles is called into question if there was no service at that time.

As numeral's post shows, City of London Police requested that O2 (and no other network) institute an, "access overload in a 1 km radius of Aldgate East". I suggest you consult an A-Z and work out just how far Tavistock Square is from Aldgate East.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
karlos
Validated Poster
Validated Poster


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staraker wrote:

stelios wrote:
What is a power surge anyway?
Surely if you think about it in laymans terms - a fuse somewhere would blow.
London underground used to make it's own electric until Red Ken decided to buy it off French company EDF instead, how does a power surge occur in an electrified system which has been running for over 100 years.

LU's Lotts Road power station was closed in October 2002, at which time it provide 60% of the system's power, the rest coming from the National Grid. It's closure, however, was down to Metronet - of which EDF is a shareholder - getting the PPP contract, which resulted in major changes to the supply set-up. Ken, of course, was hardly in favour of the whole PPP thing in the first place, so for to ascribe the "blame" to him as you do is highly misleading.

Ofcourse he was responsible.
He made the decisions regarding PFI which are all Labour policies.
He allowed/awarded Verint the contract for 'security'
He allowed the closure of Lotts Road
He ordered the purchase of elongated European buses totally unsuitable for our roads which also resulted in Mayflower Corporation our leading bus manufacturer to go belly up. I am sure his move was not influenced by thefact that John Major was an investor in Mayflower.
Ken Livingstone employed Bob Kiley the CIA supervisor who has been implicated in the blooody CIA campaigns in South America in the 1970's.
Bob Kiley was also a close assosiate of the 911 suspect Rudi Guliani.

I know you are a Labour guy but even you cannot consider Red Ken to be whiter than white.

Maybe the researchers can confirm whether there ACTUALLY was a fire at Cally Road of whether this was simply a cover story. Why would poer 'surgers' or 'failures' knock out the cctv and not the tracks?
CCTV run on 12 volts and must have a back up power supply.
Or is this another cover story.

So J7 was there really a fire at Caledonian Road that morning?

If you are suggesting that the bomber got the first train AFTER the service resumed then he cannot have arrived at 08.50. If anything he got the picadilly linetrain that STARTED at Kings X not the through train which would have been exceptionally full if running.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    9/11, 7/7 & the War on Freedom Forum Index -> Events All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 5 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group