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Rory Winter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:24 am    Post subject: This Website and Political Parties Reply with quote

Hi folks, I'm back after a long break due to problems of getting access (lost username and password) which Tony has kindly sorted out.

Some of you may know that since my return I have been conducting a lengthy exchange with this Forum's resident anti-EUers or Europhobes as I prefer to call them (most of them appear blatantly Europhobic). I myself am a confirmed and paid-up EU federalist and paid-up member of the Federal Union group so I make no bones about my four-square commitment to the European project,

However, I fully recognise and have no problem with the fact that that project should be and most certainly is subject to a lot of criticism, especially on a Forum like this which, concerned as it is with conspiracies, has a vocal group of anti-EUers. As I appear to be the only pro-EUer here who has both the time and inclination to challenge this group I accept it as a karmic cross to bear! Smile

My willingness to take time out to try and argue the pros and cons of the EU issue with those who oppose it appears to fall on permanently deaf ears. Despite the amount of time I take on the question I find that the replies I get are invariably vague or of the one-liner point-scoring type. This is frustrating but I put up with it in order to address the much larger number of lurkers who read but do not participate. A thread on the subject started in October last year (five months ago) has now got 23,270 views showing a healthy interest in the topic, 'Eurosocialist & Antifascist - Who's Blocking Our Rights', see link:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=11753

Despite the extremely low quality of the exchange (it's never been anything more, I'm afraid) it's good that the subject could be debated on this Forum as the European issue has never, in my opinion, been properly debated either in Scotland or in the rest of the so-called United Kingdom. That's all good & proper then.

But what I find extremely disturbing is the manner in which the 911 Forum facilities such as the Calendar is being used by promoters of UKIP to publicise its party conference in Morecambe. Having read the Forum's Purpose I maintain that such use of the Forum remains ouwith its remit:

Quote:
PURPOSE :- This forum currently hosted by www.nineeleven.co.uk aims to provide access to discussion forums and other online media related to political, economic, social or military events arising from the so-called ‘War on Terror’. The purpose of this forum is to provide a safe, respectful, positive space for discussion and information sharing. The forum is intended for the use of people who accept the need for a reinvestigation of 9/11 and the war on terror. Those who believe no new investigation is required should only post in the critics corner. The forum administrators are committed to a non-violent transformation of the world based on truth, justice, peace and unity. The forum is independent and not affiliated to any individual organisation, philosophy or worldview. It finds common cause with the truth, social justice, green and peace movements.


Please, folks, correct me if I am wrong but there is absolutely nothing in those words that suggests that political parties should be allowed to use this Forum's facilities. Am I correct?

On challenging what I consider to be an improper abuse by a UKIP-supporter of the Forum I have been told that the Calendar has been used in the past to advertise party political events in order to encourage 911 Truthers to attend them to lobby them. I have no problem with that. Indeed I would support the use of the Calendar in this manner.

But it is quite clear that the advertising of the UKIP Morecambe conference by what appears to be a UKIP supporter (if not member) was not done with the purpose of lobbying in mind but because the person involved thought the conference "looked promising"! See and prior article by Pikey:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=112837#112837

Now that sounds like a pretty lame excuse to me. Promising in what way to promote the Purpose of this forum, ie to promote the 911 Truth campaign? No, this is clearly a case of someone taking liberties with the Forum's stated impartiality: "The forum is independent and not affiliated to any individual organisation, philosophy or worldview".

Despite my complaints, nothing has been done to remove the said Calendar article. The only other explanation I have been given is that as the UKIP platform is one that is commonly 'debated' on this Forum it was perfectly proper that people should know about its conference in this way. My reply to that was if so then any Tom, Dick or Harry should have similar rights, including the National Front and BNP!

Clearly, that would be an entirely ludicrous position for us to find ourselves in. So the question that I must ask is why does the UKIP message get special treatment? (the Probe Conference -also now advertised- as I understand it, is non-party political and of an entirely different character).

This abuse should never have happened, It should never have been allowed. And after it took place, the article should have been removed. The fact that it has remained there I find extremely disturbing.

I like many joined this Forum in the belief that it was precisely about the things it states it is. the fact that all manner of loosely associated views are discussed there under appropriate subject titles is fine. But the use of the Forum's advertising space in this way most clearly is not and I would maintain undermines the Purpose of this Forum.

As no one has been prepared to admit to the mistake and to correct it I have asked that when this website is reorganised (in the very near future I understand) that this issue be brought up and resolved ensuring that it cannot happen after the reorganisation. I would ask for the Scottish Group's support for this and look forward to its members' views and comments.

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Last edited by Rory Winter on Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Rory has a point, but since there are only two days to go before the UKIP conference, I think it's best to focus on 'next time' rather than 'this time'.

UKIP are relevant to the Truth Movement in that they, and not many others, are asking critical questions in the European Parliament and elsewhere. If you look at the videos on Nigel Farage's website I think you'll see what I mean.

However, it's a big step from there to say that the UK should pull out of the EU. I did put a point to Nigel Farage (I'm in his constituency) that if we were to withdraw from the EU, wouldn't that mean that we would be thrown even further into the hands of the Neocons. He thought that we couldn't be more in their hands than we are now. Rory takes a different view. I can respect both views. Many active truthers seem to take the UKIP view on this, but I doubt whether most of the 3 500 registrants to this website would take that view. But in the truth movement we don't actually need a view on that. I just want to know what the options are, and that depends on knowing who is pulling the strings and how.

So, advertising a party conference as such, I think, oversteps the mark, but announcing a relevant seminar by a political party should, I think, be OK. Even, I should have thought, linking to a website of videos of an MEP asking pertinent questions that few will ask, should be fine, if in a relevant context.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm against the Lisbon Treaty and don't like the term Europhobe.

Rory, please watch the WAC Ireland film "End of Nations" (on google video) to find out why.

-HOWEVER-

You are completly right that no political party event should be an event on this site, unless it is flagged as an opportunity to campaign on 9/11 or confront an attendee on an issue.

This site must remain politically neutral.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think Rory has a point, but since there are only two days to go before the UKIP conference, I think it's best to focus on 'next time' rather than 'this time'.


I agree with you, Ian. It was a regrettable event and should not have been allowed to happen. But in the circumstances that prevail on this website just now I can see why it happened. Hopefully never again though.

I would like to say that I believe your views are not only very fair-minded but excellently put. Maybe you would like to put yourself up for a position such as Moderator in the reorganised set-up?

Quote:
So, advertising a party conference as such, I think, oversteps the mark, but announcing a relevant seminar by a political party should, I think, be OK. Even, I should have thought, linking to a website of videos of an MEP asking pertinent questions that few will ask, should be fine, if in a relevant context.


I would certainly support all this. Anything that helps to improve the quality of information and debate on this Forum needs us to support it.

Quote:
UKIP are relevant to the Truth Movement in that they, and not many others, are asking critical questions in the European Parliament and elsewhere. If you look at the videos on Nigel Farage's website I think you'll see what I mean.


Objective criticism of something like the EU --particularly in the unacceptable manner in which it is being presently run with no power to its Parliament-- must be a good thing, no matter from what quarter it comes.

Maybe Nigel Farage's views have shifted from wanting total withdrawal to being a permanent thorn in the flesh of the Eurocrats? If that were so even I would seriously consider voting for him!

Quote:
However, it's a big step from there to say that the UK should pull out of the EU


It certainly is and I am very disturbed by how the anti-EUers on this forum seek to confuse a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty with one one withdrawal. This is a deliberate and dishonest attempt to confuse our readers and an attempt to make the withdrawal campaign look hugely more popular than it is. In all the controversy there has been in many countries where the Constitution was rejected and now the Treaty Referendum in Eire no one but a miniscule number talk of withdrawal.

On the contrary, the present controversies regarding the future development of the European project are quite natural and a healthy thing. There should be much more debate and public participation within the EU in order that its peoples could have a say. I'm all for such a revolution of change, eg the European Citizens' Initiative:

http://www.citizens-initiative.eu/

And it would really be a signal move if we in Scottish 911 Truth can hold a fair, well-informed discussion on this issue (especially with a focus on Scotland) without the gladiatorial approach we have so far seen elsewhere.

As always, sassenachs are welcome just so long as they behave themselves! Smile

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Last edited by Rory Winter on Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan, I have watched bits of the film and have downloaded it entirely onto my hard drive using the free Realplayer downloader as I want to watch it in much more detail. Though I am a committed EU federalist I'm all for a popular healthy and critical permanent citizens' debate about the evolution of the EU.

I do not and never have supported the manner in which the Eurocrats and their unelected backers are running the EU as things stand. I do support initiatives such as the one from the European Left and the Athens Declaration.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=112372#112372

http://www.european-left.org/

While I strongly oppose withdrawal by the same token I strongly support the need for revolutionary change within the EU.

Sooner or later that revolutionary change will come. Let's stay with it and in it and struggle for it!

Venceremos! We shall Win!

Quote:
You are completly right that no political party event should be an event on this site, unless it is flagged as an opportunity to campaign on 9/11 or confront an attendee on an issue.

This site must remain politically neutral.


I'm sure you will agree that this is in the best interests of the Forum in the long-term. Hopefully, we can all learn from this particular mistake.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasnt aware of this event in the calender. I've got a pm about it just now from Rory posting his opening on this thread

But why didnt I get a pm BEFORE saying "hey John have you seen this" so that I can actually do something about it before Rory starts his thread saying how terrible it is "that this has been allowed to happen". rory says he complained but not to me: who did you complain to?

Sorry but I can smell politicking a mile off, and I smell bullsh*t: I'm not going to respect that

Also, having just had a look, the UKIP confernece is also featuring

Quote:
Among speakers will be... Sean Gabb of the Libertarian Alliance and Phil Booth from the NO2ID cards group


You object in particular to either of them Rory?

Why shouldnt a truth seeker go to any damn conference he chooses to listen to whatever POV he chooses? Why have invisible walls that cannot be crossed? Why have invisible walls inside the mind at all that accept such MANUFACTURED definitions as "europhile" and "europhobe"? Why not just have TRUTH?

Moreover Rory if you really want to put your energy into the debating the pro-european union position it shood hardly be a problem for people to be familiar with the counter argument

Otherwise how could they really make an informed choice?

Fact is that the membership on this site is and has always been politically diverse, and we are NOT going to start policing their views as politically acceptable and politically unacceptable providing they remain within civilised tolerances precisely becuase 9/11 truth and the wider understanding of truthseeking does NOT have a political line

If the occasional political event gets mentioned either in the calender or a thread, the occasional political link gets posted, we shall all just have to cope

We are grown up enough for that arnt we?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But why didnt I get a pm BEFORE saying "hey John have you seen this" so that I can actually do something about it before Rory starts his thread saying how terrible it is "that this has been allowed to happen". rory says he complained but not to me: who did you complain to?


John, I can assure you no politicking no bs. I wrote a request on the forum hoping that Tony Gosling would read and act upon it. Besides, I shouldn't have had to make a complaint about this in the first place. It should never have been allowed to happen. It goes against the advertised purpose of the forum!

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=112485#112485

I was under the impression that it was Tony who decided on these things. His subsequent articles indicated that he knew of the existence of the calendar item and yet did nothing about it.

Having met with so much harrassment on the UK forums I decided to 'go home' and bring it up with the Scottish group. Having done that I went to great lengths to copy it to all the Scottish and UK moderators & administrator in order to ensure that all of them knew simultaneously of my article posted to the Scottish group.

I should have addressed my initial complaint to the UK moderators as well as making a request on the forum. That was my mistake for which I apologise. It's a shame that Tony didn't act on it when he could have done.

Quote:
But why didnt I get a pm BEFORE saying "hey John have you seen this" so that I can actually do something about it before Rory starts his thread saying how terrible it is "that this has been allowed to happen". rory says he complained but not to me: who did you complain to?

Sorry but I can smell politicking a mile off, and I smell bullsh*t: I'm not going to respect that


And would you have done anything about it??? The tone and views you express here suggest you would not, expecting us all instead "to cope with it." So please don't come it, John!

Quote:
Why shouldnt a truth seeker go to any damn conference he chooses to listen to whatever POV he chooses? Why have invisible walls that cannot be crossed? Why have invisible walls inside the mind at all that accept such MANUFACTURED definitions as "europhile" and "europhobe"? Why not just have TRUTH?

Moreover Rory if you really want to put your energy into the debating the pro-european union position it shood hardly be a problem for people to be familiar with the counter argument

Otherwise how could they really make an informed choice?

Fact is that the membership on this site is and has always been politically diverse, and we are NOT going to start policing their views as politically acceptable and politically unacceptable providing they remain within civilised tolerances precisely becuase 9/11 truth and the wider understanding of truthseeking does NOT have a political line

If the occasional political event gets mentioned either in the calender or a thread, the occasional political link gets posted, we shall all just have to cope

We are grown up enough for that arnt we?


This is all an entirely separate issue. I repeat, party politics should be kept off the Forum Calendar and the like. Not to do so undermines the Forum's advertised purpose. If UKIP or its supporters are to be allowed to advertise on the Calendar then everyone should have the same right including the NF and the BNP. And that's ludicrous!

No, we shan't all 'have to cope' and the Forum's reputation will inevitably suffer. Is that what you want to see happening?

Quote:
Moreover Rory if you really want to put your energy into the debating the pro-european union position it shood hardly be a problem for people to be familiar with the counter argument


You've got some infernal cheek to bring my intentions into question! The counter argument, indeed. The only one taking the trouble to argue the case up until now has been me! This Forum is being hijacked by a small, vocal group of UKIP-supporters and YOU are condoning it!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This Forum is being hijacked by a small, vocal group of UKIP-supporters and YOU are condoning it!


Rory who are these UKIP supporters? Names please and provide the substantive evidence. In case you forgot this is supposed to be a truth site Shocked .

A copy of my pm to Justin FYI:-


Quote:
From: Pikey
To: Justin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:35 pm
Subject: Political campaigning
FYI thought you may be interested in pursuing as I'm not aware of this political party being confronted with the 911 truth challenge

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=108078&highlight=#10 8078



I think its time the moderators gave you the yellow card comrade

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me you would benefit from a step back here Rory

For a start, why are you conflating UKIP with NF and BNP? Thats simply scaremongering

Is it OK with you if some people choose to believe that Britain should not be part of Europe? Do they have the right to think that? Do they have the right to form political parties to promote that view and devise policies to propose to the electorate? Is it Ok with you that they are mentioned at all on this site?

If its not: how can you then expect to have your views and your opinions valued and respected?

Rights are that which we ask for ourselves becuase we extend them to others

Would I have "done anything about it?"

I think I would certainly have said you have the right to promote a pro-european event if you wish: and I'll have the right to get down there with my video camera and see whats going on

What I am delighted about is that you are willing to debate a pro-european position. I'd love a full debate: but I also objectively am aware (the chance of my voting for UKIP are slim) there are a lot of hard questions need answering as to why we should embrace the "European Project" as a worthwhile thing, or the deciet and corruption that are documented parts of its history

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In case you forgot this is supposed to be a truth site Shocked


Well all I will say about this supposed interest in truth and John White's similar self-righteous comments that there's truth and truth and the one I've come across here amongst the anti-EUers and Europhobes is a very insidious one indeed. It's a very lop-sided truth which falls into a paranoia.

The vocal group I refer to will be found giving me the same old runarounds on several threads whenever I dare to broach the subject of the EU. Any intelligent reader will soon deduce who I mean. I find it distasteful to read out denunciations with lists of names. But of course I mean the usual suspects who are joined briefly from time-to-time by one or another sympathiser.

It's always easy when there's just one to pick on but I'm quite used to working in a minority of one as when representing the Highland Greens I had to deal with 51 other reactionary 'Highland Gentlemen' (regional cooncilors). The more I'm attacked the deeper I dig in if I think the position is worth defending. And I know that this applies here.

I have exposed the anti-EU arguments presented by several here as flawed, inconsistent and dangerous. I'll return to that soon. Like others present here I joined this forum after reading its aims, Purpose. While I haven't the slightest objection to people expressing whatever view they might wish I strongly object to any individual or group using a supposedly non-affiliated forum to publicise a political party whose views are, in your own words, "promising".

Either the Forum takes great care not to appear to take sides with any political party or it does take sides and lets it be known in public. But to claim to be independent and then to flirt with UKIP's "promising" views is dishonest and betrays our independence and misleads the readers.

In other words, you can't have it both ways. Either stay independent and don't flirt with party politics or align yourselves with a chosen political party and let it be known openly. That, in my book, is what Truth is about.

Quote:
I think its time the moderators gave you the yellow card comrade


Ah, here come the threats which inevitably follow a shallow pretence of tolerance. I wondered who would be the first to make them.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well all I will say about this supposed interest in truth and John White's similar self-righteous comments


Mate, if I can't be self righteous I'm a fool to be waiting around for someone else to be righteous for me Cool

All I give is my POV and I give it straight: its what I'm known for

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mate, if I can't be self righteous I'm a fool to be waiting around for someone else to be righteous for me Cool


While righteousness is thought to be a good thing by some, self righteousness is entirely another matter. I wouldn't recommend it to you or the next bloke, John Smile

Quote:
All I give is my POV and I give it straight: its what I'm known for


Fine by me, as long as you don't object to it being reciprocated.

John, in case you missed it the first time around, what I'm asking everyone on this Forum is this. A mistake was made. Please don't let such mistakes occur because the entire Forum's credibility will suffer if they do.

God knows, 911 Truthers have enough enemies, some now demanding that we should be incarcerated! See the article below, just received:

MSNBC Reporter: "I hope there a secret prison for all 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists"

Media backlash against 9/11 truth betrays desperation as dam breaks
Steve Watson
March 4, 2008

The corporate media has stepped up an ongoing smear campaign against anyone who dares to question the government's leaky and falsified account of the events of September 11th 2001.

We received reports this morning that MSNBC ran a piece on Morning Joe during which a reporter called for anyone questioning the official account to be placed in secret CIA prisons.

One emailer wrote:

MSNBC Reporter on Morning Joe Today said "I hope there a secret prison for all 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists in Eastern Europe somewhere"

So when is it official that we live in the New Soviet Union, the U.S.S.A.?

The piece was a response to events in Corpus Christi yesterday where police arrested and detained a 9/11 truth protester with a sign at a Bill Clinton rally.

Video of the piece has now surfaced on youtube. Watch as the reporter sardonically states "you don't do that because that's when the secret service steps in", while his yes people, including Joe Scarborough himself, who seem to be having their own conversations in the background, start braying "Tase him, tase him bro" like automated robots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqhN_p3ZO6o

Evidently in the new America sign waving and enjoying your first amendment right is now considered a matter for the police.

These events follow the phony media-contrived "outrage" over comments made by Oscar winning actress Marion Cotillard.

After the comments, which are reportedly a year old, were hyped by the mainstream media, it quickly became apparent that a manufactured frenzy was in full swing when some newspapers wrote false reports claiming Cotillard had retracted her comments and apologized.

It is clear that this move was designed to foster a default position media response when it comes to any future story involving 9/11 truth.

With Oscar winning Hollywood actresses, legendary musical performers and a whole host of other notable public figures joining the hundreds of professors, scholars, former congressman, former intelligence agents and ex government officials that have questioned the official story of the attacks, together with the thousands of independent researchers, there is no longer any doubt that the 9/11 truth movement has gone mainstream.

In response there has been an increased backlash, driven primarily by a mainstream media in its realization that its archaic role and very existence is under direct threat from the huge awakening and independent search for the truth that is bubbling up to the surface of mainstream culture.

In its transformation from an underground phenomenon to a predominant cultural movement, 9/11 truth, as with any movement of significance that has come before it, has inevitably evolved and broadened, forging a truth movement per se.

This is something of which the establishment media is frightened to death.

There are, of course, those who will stick with the establishment, those who refuse to accept this cultural change, those who find it less appealing and more of a tiresome struggle to think for themselves.

The kind of people who will agree with Bill O'Reilly when he threatens any "truther", his definition of which is a person who does not agree with every uninformed thing he says.

The kind of people who will agree when a Fox News analyst suggests any "dissenter" should be tased or "beaten to a pulp".

Those people who, when we write an article detailing the building of concentration camps in America, will simultaneously deny the existence of those camps while calling for us to be incarcerated and tortured within them.

We keep coming back to the following quote but there is no other that better describes the awakening and the resultant backlash we are currently witnessing:

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For a start, why are you conflating UKIP with NF and BNP? Thats simply scaremongering

Is it OK with you if some people choose to believe that Britain should not be part of Europe? Do they have the right to think that? Do they have the right to form political parties to promote that view and devise policies to propose to the electorate? Is it Ok with you that they are mentioned at all on this site?

If its not: how can you then expect to have your views and your opinions valued and respected?


You are not hearing what I'm saying. I have no objection to people expressing views as they do in the Forum. That's normal. That's life in the great big melting pot. But then to use facilities like the Forum Calendar or announcements space to advertise party political conferences with the intention of recruitment or promoting that Party's views is offensive to all the others who don't support that party.

A Forum which is truly independent would not allow such a thing to happen. If it did, clearly it's not independent and favours a party. Fine, in which case it shouldn't pretend to be independent and should announce its party affiliations.

Recently, I subscribed to Federal Union. Within hours I told this forum that I had. Be clear, be honest. Otherwise trouble comes. We are campaigners, not politicians. Let's stay that way.

Quote:
I think I would certainly have said you have the right to promote a pro-european event if you wish: and I'll have the right to get down there with my video camera and see whats going on

What I am delighted about is that you are willing to debate a pro-european position. I'd love a full debate: but I also objectively am aware (the chance of my voting for UKIP are slim) there are a lot of hard questions need answering as to why we should embrace the "European Project" as a worthwhile thing, or the deciet and corruption that are documented parts of its history


Advertising a pro, anti or whatever position is very different to advertising in a party political way. The two things are poles apart.

It would be amazing, wonderful and very good for citizen's democracy if we could agree to use the Forum for a proper investigation. I'd prefer an investigation to a debate because the first looks at the question objectively whereas a debate is where people take sides and slug it out.

Britain has never had such a debate. Politicians just took sides and treated us all as politicians always do: dishonestly. So a lot of people voted to join the Common Market because they were afraid of the consequences if they stayed out. That was a bad way to join and now we can see the fallout that followed with disillusion and disappointment.

We all know about the Bilderbergers, capitalists, Eurocrats & they game they're playing. But what do we know of all the others in the European scene who while supporting the European project are working for a very different kind of Europe? Before writing off the whole project we should put all our energy into creating that different Europe.

I do not believe that the struggle for that is lost yet. Not by a long chalk. We should not and must not give up yet. We're in this thing for the duration, all our lives. Right to the very end.

Britain is at a crucial moment of change when it is about to leave all its imperialist and post-imperialist past behind and go into a new time in these apocalyptic times when it is Mother Nature who's calling the shots. The whole Planet needs a revolution of peace, not just the EU.

But it's within the EU that I believe we should start it together with our brothers and sisters across the Planet. It is my deepest wish that all good people here can find a way of finding a consensus agreement which we could then offer the rest of our country. Then let them see what folk on 911 Truth are really about! Smile

Oh, and I'm delighted that we're both delighted! Can we see how we personally can build on that?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory Winter wrote:
Quote:
For a start, why are you conflating UKIP with NF and BNP? Thats simply scaremongering

Is it OK with you if some people choose to believe that Britain should not be part of Europe? Do they have the right to think that? Do they have the right to form political parties to promote that view and devise policies to propose to the electorate? Is it Ok with you that they are mentioned at all on this site?

If its not: how can you then expect to have your views and your opinions valued and respected?


You are not hearing what I'm saying


I beg your pardon? In what way have I not heard this?

Quote:
This is all an entirely separate issue. I repeat, party politics should be kept off the Forum Calendar and the like. Not to do so undermines the Forum's advertised purpose. If UKIP or its supporters are to be allowed to advertise on the Calendar then everyone should have the same right including the NF and the BNP. And that's ludicrous!


The fatcs are here Rory that I have yet to make a firm opinion on what you are saying but I am letting you form my opinion for me by observing the actions of yourself

Its up to you what you show me and up to me what I think about it

I think you have said you wish to promise a lot in terms of bringing debate and swaying opinion

I say: get on with it! I am certain I would

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From: Pikey
To: Justin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:35 pm
Subject: Political campaigning
FYI thought you may be interested in pursuing as I'm not aware of this political party being confronted with the 911 truth challenge

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=108078&highlight=#10 8078


Why didn't you tell us all about this private message to Justin? It would certainly have put a very different complexion on the matter if you had. And if it was your intention to encourage folk to go there & lobby I would have been the first to support that!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From: Pikey
To: Justin
Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:35 pm
Subject: Political campaigning
FYI thought you may be interested in pursuing as I'm not aware of this political party being confronted with the 911 truth challenge

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=108078&highlight=#10 8078


For the attention of the board as a whole: we do not allow the publication of private messages

However, on looking carefully at this I consider Pikey has a right of disclosure: he is only showing us what he wrote to justin: not any subsequent reply. This is no different than simply telling us what he said, easily done on th thread, and could be seen as actually preferable because it is evidence of what was said

Therefore I consider he has not broken the rule

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, sometimes rules are meant to be broken and this was probably one of them. This letter puts a completely different complexion on things. BTW, you and Pikey have internal messages from me which need your attention.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I beg your pardon? In what way have I not heard this?


I meant that though you still ask me that question in several places I have recently pointed out that I have no problem whatsoever with people expressing different views. That's life. That's not what my concern has been regarding the use of the Forum Calendar. But Pikey's publishing that PM has cleared all that up at a stroke. There was a big misunderstanding on my part about his motives. Now that I know what they were I am happy to say that I endorse them.

Quote:
The fatcs are here Rory that I have yet to make a firm opinion on what you are saying but I am letting you form my opinion for me by observing the actions of yourself

Its up to you what you show me and up to me what I think about it

I think you have said you wish to promise a lot in terms of bringing debate and swaying opinion

I say: get on with it! I am certain I would


There's a healing that needs to be done. There's a lot of hurt and distrust amongst each other on the Forum about what is happening to our lives, our country, our people. We have all been made cynical about the system that has ruled us for so long. Now, the system lies exposed as it has never done before and karmic justice is on the way.

Someone told me that 2008 is the Mayan Year of Justice. If that is true it explains a lot. The crimes of our erstwhile rulers are being exposed everywhere and the impetus for a social revolution will come out of all this. That's why our rulers are so afraid & creating police states around us. They know it's very late in the day now. As I write, our fellow 911 Truthers in the US are being threatened with incarceration (see next post). We're next. They started with the Muslims but they'll soon move onto us.

Quote:
The corporate media has stepped up an ongoing smear campaign against anyone who dares to question the government's leaky and falsified account of the events of September 11th 2001.

We received reports this morning that MSNBC ran a piece on Morning Joe during which a reporter called for anyone questioning the official account to be placed in secret CIA prisons.


This is a time for solidarity and we have many sisters and brothers in Europe and across the Planet. So recognising the urgency of these times let's all try to discuss the European issue from a place that seeks mutual understanding of our respective positions in order that we can find and work for a common goal.

That is what I am asking us all to do. It doesn't matter that we appear to disagree. What we all have in common is 911 Truth and let's start the healing of our misunderstandings and mistrust right there.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Morning Joe wants 911 Truthers Tased & Sent To Secret Ca Reply with quote

Morning Joe wants 911 Truthers Tased & Sent To Secret Camps


Link


About this Video

In response to the arrest of a 9/11 demonstrator during a Bill Clinton appearance in Corpus Christi, corporate media shill and former Republican Congress critter Joe Scarborough and his co-hosts demanded 9/11 truthers be tasered and taken to detention camps. "Where's the taser?" Joe wants to know as MSNBC runs footage of the man's arrest. "Tase him!" His co-host adds: "Led away in handcuffs and hopefully taken to one of those secret prisons in eastern Europe and never to be heard from again... I hope we have a special prison for 9/11 conspiracy theorists."

In other words, the corporate behemoth MSNBC believes people who disagree with the government not only do not deserve First Amendment rights and protection, but also believe demonstrators should be kidnapped by the CIA and taken to a "special prison" to be tortured and ultimately killed, as this is the fate many who disappear suffer.

Is it possible the United States is about to become like Pinochet's Chile? In 1973, thanks to the CIA and U.S. corporations, Chile became a brutal police state. Chileans were subjected to systematic and massive violations of their most basic human rights. Official figures indicate that nearly 3,000 people were executed, disappeared or lost their lives as a result of torture and political violence. It would seem "Morning Joe" would enthusiastically welcome the installation of a fascist state where those he disagrees with are disappeared, tortured, and murdered.

Last October, CNN host Glenn Beck called 9/11 truthers "insane" and "dangerous anarchists" in response to 9/11 truthers infiltrating the Real Time with Bill Maher show. "These truthers are exactly the kind of people who want to rock this nation's foundation, tear us apart and plant the seeds of dissatisfaction in all of us... [this is] the kind of group a Timothy McVeigh would come from," declared Beck, setting a precedence followed this morning by the scurrilous Joe Scarborough and his complaisant minions.

"In thousands of 9/11 protests over the course of the last six years, not one person has been arrested for violent conduct," Steve Watson wrote at the time. "To cart blanches suggest that the truth movement is dangerous, 'a threat to children' and intent on violence is extremely inflammatory and indicates just how afraid of investigating and debating the facts people like Glen Beck actually are."

The core of the 9/11 truth movement is composed of highly educated and progressive individuals who are strictly opposed to violence and are intent on protecting a free and peaceful society which has been under dire threat ever since the attacks of 9/11 and the ensuing cover up.

Furthermore the movement represents the very antithesis of anarchism in that it is actively seeking to restore and protect our traditional form of government which has been usurped by an unaccountable cabal that continues to operate outside of Constitutional law and with little restraint using 9/11 as justification.

Indeed, Beck and Scarborough are calling for such draconian measures simply because the 9/11 truth movement is comprised "of highly educated and progressive individuals who are strictly opposed to violence" and because of this they must be demonized as a threat to national security and thus the government must kidnap, torture, and murder them. Although Scarborough did not suggest 9/11 truth "idiots" be murdered, this is of course the ultimate fate of those who oppose militarized fascism, now gaining speed in the United States.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Where do we start? Reply with quote

Quote:
I think you have said you wish to promise a lot in terms of bringing debate and swaying opinion


I am not very interested in debating the issue as if we're in a contest & one side must win and the other lose. The issue is far too important to think in terms of winners and losers.

What I am interested to see happening is a mutual willingness to attempt to understand each other's respective positions in order to seek a common agreement amongst ourselves. I think that the Subversion of Society where Brian Gerrish is to give a talk (see Home Page Noticeboard) is based on a similar intention.

We need to find ways of getting out of the mess this island is in. The European issue has a direct bearing on that and hence important. We need to look at the European issue with a view to finding common ground of what is in the interest of our society and see if that interest fits in with the rest of Europe.

Whether one is of the Left or not I believe that documents like the Athens Declaration are a good platform to work from. May I suggest that we all read it and see what have in common with it?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've pmd Rory and hopefully we can all put this to bed and move onwards and upwards in our quest for the truth.

On the EU lets agree to disagree and all continue to maintain an open mind and play the ball not the man.

Anyway there are more pressing issues for us to work together and resolve imo, in particular the future survival of this campaign; re:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=113367#113367

Peace & truth

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've pmd Rory and hopefully we can all put this to bed and move onwards and upwards in our quest for the truth.

On the EU lets agree to disagree and all continue to maintain an open mind and play the ball not the man.

Anyway there are more pressing issues for us to work together and resolve imo, in particular the future survival of this campaign; re:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=113367#113367

Peace & truth


Yes, agreed, there are more pressing and immediate issues to deal with. Our disagreements on the EU I still feel come from a place of communications lack than anything else and that our respective positions are much closer than they appear ... especially so when exchanges become confrontational and combative, something which we're all responsible for having done.

So, in the future I shall try to approach the issue in a different way with the intention of seeking consensus where possible and acceptance of a loyal opposition where not. That way we remain united on our raison d'etre, the 911 truth movement.

Clearly, it's in our mutual and collective interest to work in cooperation and I very much hope we can. The group synthesis that comes from that is a very powerful thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess if you raise an eyebrow at the MOSSAD agent Sarkozy being treated royally you are an antisemitic europhobe?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, agreed, there are more pressing and immediate issues to deal with.

Yes Rory. There are more pressing issues to deal with.
I'm a Europhile myself while hating the EU as an entity
I'm pissed off with these repeated EU threads. This always happens here. Someone gets on a ride and has to progenitor the same subject over and over
I'm an old lefty liberal middle class aspiring myself. Always liked travelling Europe.
Nowadays find that travelling to and from the UK to and from European countries is like exiting and entering a dour Nazi state as far as the UK and its abysmal airports are concerned
However there is nothing to recommend the EU show.
This in-thrall to the neocons stuff is delusion. The UK, Scotland included, is in charge and leads events.
European countries will soon follow the UK's dire lead
To view the press the Sarkozy visit is an ultimate nightmare
This guy and his moll will destroy France

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm pissed off with these repeated EU threads. This always happens here. Someone gets on a ride and has to progenitor the same subject over and over


Well ... you don't have to read them if you don't wish to. Our readers deserve to hear other views on the issue and not only those which are invariably phobic, ill-informed or scare-mongering.

And the more one dissects these anti-EU posts and goes to their sources the more obvious it becomes that the original scare mongers are often just nutters. Witness the stuff put out by Justin about the Arc Manche Group and a conspiracy to redraw national boundaries &c.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=113379

Follow the links to their souces and you can what nonsense it is. And he should have known better to quote anything from a reactionary rag like the Daily Mail.

It's frustrating that I find myself having to repeat the same points ad nauseam. That's only because they don't seem to register with closed minds. Whenever anti-EU posts go up don't expect them to go unchallenged.

Quote:
To view the press the Sarkozy visit is an ultimate nightmare
This guy and his moll will destroy France


He certainly will. Watch this video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wyzb_cet-homme-la-bhale-bacce-crew- sarko_music

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess if you raise an eyebrow at the MOSSAD agent Sarkozy being treated royally you are an antisemitic europhobe?


Please see 'Sarkozy cuts a Radioactive Entente with Perfidious Albion'

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=113270#113270

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:35 pm    Post subject: The forum and political parties Reply with quote

I would agree with Rory that the forum shouldn't be used to advertise for political parties.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened to freedom of speech?
Every UK party and every US candidate has been discussed many times.
That is good.
This forum has exposed many things so i would say politics is an intergral part of it. I would argue let everyone discuss whatever they want to.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This forum has exposed many things so i would say politics is an intergral part of it. I would argue let everyone discuss whatever they want to.


Hi Karlos: please remind Tony Gosling of what you say here. He has effectively threatened to silence me because he does not like to hear what I say. I find it ironic that the very person who calls himself a 'freedom fighter' who is busy resisting a "fascist EU State" is behaving like a little Hitler amongst his fellows!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Rolling Eyes

Thank you for your support, Barbara. Discussing political parties is one thing. Advertising them as was recently done with UKIP was, in effect, advertising with an aim to recruit party members. If this trend is allowed to continue it will give the 911 Truth Forum a very bad name and a reputation for UKIP recruiting through the back door.

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