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Gravy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject: About this "Critics Corner" Reply with quote

How absurd is it that the "Truth Movement" relegates its critics to a "corner?" How does that foster the free exchange of ideas and facts in other threads?

In a few days, several of us "critics" have made dozens of corrections to information that regulars here held as "truth." Some people here are horribly misinformed about the events of 9/11, and many of you do not understand what standards of evidence are. But correctiions are unwelcome in the "Truth Movement?" Facts are unwelcome? Links to accurate information are unwelcome?

You're always welcome at the JREF forum, where new information is valued and dissenters aren't shuffled off to some corner. Just have your critical thinking cap screwed on tight.

Thank you for the brief opportunity to be freely heard, and best wishes to all.

-Mark Roberts
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Abandoned Ego
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: 2 points here. Reply with quote

2 points here Gravy.

Firstly ;

Quote:
How absurd is it that the "Truth Movement" relegates its critics to a "corner?" How does that foster the free exchange of ideas and facts in other threads?


I couldnt agree more.

Quote:
In a few days, several of us "critics" have made dozens of corrections to information that regulars here held as "truth." Some people here are horribly misinformed about the events of 9/11, and many of you do not understand what standards of evidence are. But correctiions are unwelcome in the "Truth Movement?"


I havent had chance to check all of the corrections but ok. You got the benefit of the doubt at this stage Im always grateful for any of my own "facts" being corrected. But I cant remember too many thus far. But fair enough all the same.

However, at this point your post definitely goes downhill a lot. People who live in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones;

Quote:
Facts are unwelcome? Links to accurate information are unwelcome?


Ive posted several of the above, asking along the way for the 19 Arab conspiracy theorists to address them. Thus far on many of my points the silence has been deafening.

Et Tu Brute ?

Followed of course by your crowning glory;

Quote:
Just have your critical thinking cap screwed on tight.


Heres YOURE critical thinking;

One day, the entire US military industrial complex - the most sophisticated, technologically advanced nation on Earth is taken COMPLETELY by surprise by 19 arabs armed with only stanley knives and the will of Allah ( even though one of those with the "will of allah" was getting pissed in a strip bar the night before, and has a stripper for a girlfriend)

Meanwhile, on the ground the FBI, CIA, and all the best that America had to offer were also "caught cold"

Next news - 2 or 3 days later and the whole case is solved.

And thats a logical conspiracy theory ?

THATS critical thinking ?

Kettle and Pot immediately spring to mind.

Next of course we get the "logical thinkers" citing the Kean commission report as some kind of inexhaustible inquiry into the mass murder of the century ( prior to Iraq and Afghanistan that is ) when even the scantest observation of the appointess would clearly indicate to any logical mind that this was NEVER going to be a free all encompassing impartial inquiry.

THATS critical thinking ?

I could of course go on and on ad infinitum about the "critical thinking" of the "official" conspiracy theorists.

And in the words of the leader of the Official conspiracy theory;

"I can remember seeing the first plane hitting the first building........there was a TV screen on ..........and thinking it must be pilot error"


Laughing

Not only does your hypocrisy 'suck' , but might I suggest you get a new "official" spokesman ?


Last edited by Abandoned Ego on Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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paul wright
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jref =James Randi? Oh fock oh fock oh fock
This slime uppence cant be true!
No wonder I want nothing to do with these creeps- EVER

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ian neal
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: About this "Critics Corner" Reply with quote

Gravy wrote:
How absurd is it that the "Truth Movement" relegates its critics to a "corner?" How does that foster the free exchange of ideas and facts in other threads?

In a few days, several of us "critics" have made dozens of corrections to information that regulars here held as "truth." Some people here are horribly misinformed about the events of 9/11, and many of you do not understand what standards of evidence are. But correctiions are unwelcome in the "Truth Movement?" Facts are unwelcome? Links to accurate information are unwelcome?

You're always welcome at the JREF forum, where new information is valued and dissenters aren't shuffled off to some corner. Just have your critical thinking cap screwed on tight.

Thank you for the brief opportunity to be freely heard, and best wishes to all.

-Mark Roberts


Gravy it is not that the creation of a critics corner relegates you. The primary purpose of this forum is to allow those of us who believe 9/11 to be an inside job to connect with each other and cooperate in raising public awareness of the mountain of evidence that challenges the Kean report and unite in a call for a further indepedentent inquiry. As I try to explain here the creation of a critics corner allows 'us' to engage with our critics but also keeps a separation between this debate and communication between people who already accept that a further inquiry is required

Not a difficult concept. The 2 rules that need to apply in order for such a set up to work are ALL posters show respect to each other and avoid ad hominem attacks and 'our critics' respect the wish to keep this separation.

I hope that such a separation will actually allow a respectful debate, since regular posters will not feel the other sections and the debate within them is open to hijacking by critics. Many here will share dh's view that they do not want anything to do with 'you', hence the creation of a separate area that allows those that do want to engage with you to do so and those that don't, don't

Now no one would claim that all information within this forum is error free. But if you truly know 9/11 you will know that even if you think you have disproven or corrected certain facts held as truths by some here, you have a whole mountain of different strands of evidence to correct or disprove, before the official account holds water. Hence the creation of the critics corner. Go ahead 'debunk' if you can, but with respect and in the critics corner only please.

Thanks
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TimmyG
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think critics corner is a good idea. i don't think it makes the truth seeking any less democractic. more so i'd say

Quote:
many of you do not understand what standards of evidence are.


the thing is. defining a standard of evidence can be a matter of opinion. I am a believer that the establishment (ie. government. shadow government. and related bodies) are usually influenced by an agenda of personal gain. so saying 'the nist report says this' or 'fema said this' doesn't amount to truthfulness for me.
i find it less likely for an independent scientist such as steven jones to be motivated by personal gain (infact he has a lot to lose by speaking about demolition theory. it is quite obviously not in his best personal interests to do so) .

i've heard the critics say things like 'lets see what the wtc7 nist report concludes before talking about controlled demolition' . the fact is. the official report for the collapse of building 7 is unlikely to produce anything that the establishment don't want to be made public. so it will be biased.

there are many other points i could make as to why official bodies connected to the american government should not be automatically trusted. i'm sure i don't have to elaborate

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alwun
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject: the corner shop Reply with quote

It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.
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kookomula
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely, if you are correcting a fact you are not criticising, if your correction can be backed up with some evidence. I think it would depend on your wording.
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IronSnot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dh wrote:
Jref =James Randi? Oh fock oh fock oh fock
This slime uppence cant be true!
No wonder I want nothing to do with these creeps- EVER


I've just registered over there. I have no idea who he is, but he looks a bit like some sort of crackpot new age fascist I must admit.

Any more info?
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Dog
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: About this "Critics Corner" Reply with quote

Gravy wrote:
How absurd is it that the "Truth Movement" relegates its critics to a "corner?" How does that foster the free exchange of ideas and facts in other threads?



That's one way of looking at it Gravy.

Another way might perhaps be; "How democratic and fair-minded of the site's moderators to provide such a forum-within-a-forum."

Surely you belong on a Pro-Cheney forum?

Let's simplify.

Imagine this is a John Lennon fan site.

You're a die-hard Britney fan.

OK, you think of Lennon as some ancient prophet of "fey-hippy-peace-love-get in the sack for, oooh; maybe eight-years-a-smokingood-ganja, McCartney piss-takin, unwashed beard-fest"

Fair enough.

Fire off a couple of rounds to upset the ol' b****** brigade.

And then move on.

What are you still doing here?

Aren't you forgetting Cheney?

Ooops... Britney?
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Bicnarok
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its like science, you can only prove your theories when they have been tested and put throught trails by other scientists and yes critics.

having a corner for critics is ok as long as critics can post in other forums and threads.

Everyone is a critic! even believers in the truth movement dont agree on everything.
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Jay Ref
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

alwun wrote:
It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.


AntiSemitism raises it's ugly mug yet again in the trooth movement. No one need put words into your nasty mouth do they?

Quote:
JewNazi, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi

Terms used by particularly vocal opponents of Israel and Zionism and some anti-Semites [17] [18] [19] [20][21] [22] [23] who advocate the view that aspects of Judaism, Zionism, or Israeli government policy towards Arabs and Muslims are fascist or similar to behavior thought typical of Nazis. The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, has stated that comparing "contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is one example of the way "in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel."[24] In 2003, Google News described the term "Zionazi" as a "degrading, hateful slur" and refused to index San Francisco Independent Media Center (SF Indymedia) because it used it; SF Indymedia agreed that it "could be considered hate speech. "


So now the troothseekers crawl into the sack with the antisemites as they allow what even indymedia considers "hate speech". Well, we pretty well know who's gonna be on top...and the result...ugly kids that no one wants.

-z
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"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense
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Alek
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: About this "Critics Corner" Reply with quote

Gravy wrote:
How absurd is it that the "Truth Movement" relegates its critics to a "corner?" How does that foster the free exchange of ideas and facts in other threads?



It's not absurd at all in the context of the truth movement being relegated to websites and video documentaries to express its views. Opposing views have the monolithic power of the mainstream media and government backing them up, regardless of the factual disputes and contradictions with the official conspiracy theory. We are the minority here, and we have to get our point across before another "terrorist" attack occurs that will make everyone forget about 9/11. You're free to join your JREF friends in insulting our intelligence and exchanging insults in the thread for which that is designed. It's good that people like Jay Ref can't derail all of the threads.

The fact that you personally have gone on record saying that Loose Change got "everything" wrong, and that the 9/11 truth movement is entirely wrong, makes your credibility nil with me. You aren't here to talk about the facts or reconcile contradictions, you're here to preach your version of the truth. Well, all we have to do to hear that is turn on the television. Perhaps if you admitted that there are some very disturbing problems with the official account, and that these suspicions deserve a better investigation than the Kean Commission with its conflicts of interest, you might gain some credibility at least with me. But I don't think that's going to happen, because it can't. The government's story has to be unimpeachable for you, or then you might actually have to entertain some unwanted thoughts.

Quote:


In a few days, several of us "critics" have made dozens of corrections to information that regulars here held as "truth." Some people here are horribly misinformed about the events of 9/11, and many of you do not understand what standards of evidence are. But correctiions are unwelcome in the "Truth Movement?" Facts are unwelcome? Links to accurate information are unwelcome?



None of you have convinced me of anything that I didn't know already, namely that a number of 9/11 theories are as bogus as the official one. You aren't the authority on 9/11, and you don't understand that in many cases it is the evidence itself which is in dispute. Corrections are always welcome, but the problem is that neither you nor I are in a position to know the truth of 9/11 with certainty. It's hard to get accurate, factual information in this polarized, spin-driven society we live in. Much of what we accept is prejudiced by what we already believe. That goes for you too.

Quote:


You're always welcome at the JREF forum, where new information is valued and dissenters aren't shuffled off to some corner. Just have your critical thinking cap screwed on tight.



I'm not welcome, I was banned. I refused to let a moderator edit my post, and so I edited it back the way it was. After being trolled I posted a profanity and after editing the moderator's censorship twice I was banned. I don't have a problem with it, since I broke a forum rule. But the JREF forum is a waste of time. Dissenters aren't shuffled off into a corner, they're just gang-mocked and insulted until they find that it is pointless to continue making posts there. This is much like what Jay Ref, your fine representative, has done here.

Quote:


Thank you for the brief opportunity to be freely heard, and best wishes to all.

-Mark Roberts
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aggle-rithm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: About this "Critics Corner" Reply with quote

Alek wrote:


I'm not welcome, I was banned. I refused to let a moderator edit my post, and so I edited it back the way it was. After being trolled I posted a profanity and after editing the moderator's censorship twice I was banned.



So he should have said, "you're welcome unless you act like a spoiled child".
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JimB
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bicnarok wrote:
Everyone is a critic! even believers in the truth movement dont agree on everything.


They don't agree on much from what I've been reading on this and other forums. 9/11 was an inside job and the towers came down by controlled demolition. Beyond that, it seems it's every man for himself.
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scar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimB wrote:
Bicnarok wrote:
Everyone is a critic! even believers in the truth movement dont agree on everything.


They don't agree on much from what I've been reading on this and other forums. 9/11 was an inside job and the towers came down by controlled demolition. Beyond that, it seems it's every man for himself.


So, according to you Jim, the truth movement is united that "911 was an inside job and the towers came down by controlled demolition." That sounds like quite a consensus to me. Makes sense when you have examined the evidence properly.
However, you judge that as not agreeing on much? Very interesting.

There are differences of opinion and every man for himself implies freedom to me which is surely a strength.

"The campaign recognizes that there is a diverse range of opinion amongst 9/11 truth campaigners. The campaign does not endorse any one position. What we do say is when taken in totality the evidence overwhelmingly supports the need to reopen 9/11. "

Beyond that why does it matter to you?
I suppose it all depends on whether you look for agreement or division...
It makes it much easier for people to dismiss the truth movement if they deny this agreement. I understand that.

After your first post I thought you werent going to come back for a few years Jim. Im glad you have been intrigued further.

All the Best.
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JimB
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scar wrote:
So, according to you Jim, the truth movement is united that "911 was an inside job and the towers came down by controlled demolition." That sounds like quite a consensus to me. Makes sense when you have examined the evidence properly.
However, you judge that as not agreeing on much? Very interesting.


I concur that agreement appears very strong throughout the truth seeker movement that the towers came down by controlled thermite detonation.

However, with the claims that 9/11 is an inside job, I'd say that that's where consensus ends on this point as there appears no agreement on who exactly was behind the twin towers' destruction. The American government? A secret cabal with the American government? The Illuminati? Zionists? etc There's a myriad of opinion. So yes, I'll stand by my statement that there's little agreed on.

scar wrote:
There are differences of opinion and every man for himself implies freedom to me which is surely a strength.


I'll direct you to David Shaylor's comments regarding NPT in the New Statesman article. Do you regard what he said as strengthening the movement or detracting from it? I think there lies your answer.
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scar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimB wrote:

I concur that agreement appears very strong throughout the truth seeker movement that the towers came down by controlled thermite detonation.


Thanks for your reply Jim.
Enough to call for a independant investigation? i.e. do you support the campaign?


JimB wrote:
However, with the claims that 9/11 is an inside job, I'd say that that's where consensus ends on this point as there appears no agreement on who exactly was behind the twin towers' destruction. The American government? A secret cabal with the American government? The Illuminati? Zionists? etc There's a myriad of opinion. So yes, I'll stand by my statement that there's little agreed on.


This is a common misconception.
The irrefutable proof of controlled demolition (imo) and the many other smoking guns which are agreed upon are more than enough to get a further independant investigation. Thats what its all about...
The many holes in the official conspiracy theory are also agreed upon by most. All the evidence absolutely points towards an inside job.
We dont need to say exactly who did it right now although of course i have my own theories on it and there are prime suspects that many agree upon.
All will be revealed.

Therefore your statement that theres little agreed on doesnt stand up to scrutiny im afraid.

JimB wrote:
scar wrote:
There are differences of opinion and every man for himself implies freedom to me which is surely a strength.


I'll direct you to David Shaylor's comments regarding NPT in the New Statesman article. Do you regard what he said as strengthening the movement or detracting from it? I think there lies your answer.


Whilst i appreciate everyones freedom to 'speak their own truth', for those who are spokemen for the campaign and in the media i dont feel that applies (although i wish it did!). I feel that any focus on fringe, unprovable theories is foolish as do you i think. For the vast majority of people in this campaign it doesnt apply and freedom to speak their own truth is a strength. So its more complex than a yes or no answer.
Im not happy about Dave saying that to the media i must say. Even though the interviewer had an agenda to draw this out and didnt include any explanations. If most of the media werent such as*holes this kind of thing wouldnt be an issue. The way 'we' are all tarred with the same brush for differing opinions is a disgrace but thats just the way it is right now, sadly.

I do think its a 'turd in the punchbowl' at this stage but there are some strange anomalies which havent yet been explained away. These can be sorted out once public awareness is reached. Whatever happens the truth will come out regardless in the end.

Thanks again for your reply and clarification.
Do you support the campaigns objective?
Did ya check out that video i linked ya to?

"Without freedom of thought, there can be no such thing as wisdom; and no such thing as public liberty, without freedom of speech."- Benjamin Franklin

"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."- Benjamin Franklin

"Let us dare to read, think, speak and write." - John Adams

All the Best
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: About this "Critics Corner" Reply with quote

Gravy wrote:
How absurd is it that the "Truth Movement" relegates its critics to a "corner?" How does that foster the free exchange of ideas and facts in other threads?

In a few days, several of us "critics" have made dozens of corrections to information that regulars here held as "truth." Some people here are horribly misinformed about the events of 9/11, and many of you do not understand what standards of evidence are. But correctiions are unwelcome in the "Truth Movement?" Facts are unwelcome? Links to accurate information are unwelcome?

You're always welcome at the JREF forum, where new information is valued and dissenters aren't shuffled off to some corner. Just have your critical thinking cap screwed on tight.

Thank you for the brief opportunity to be freely heard, and best wishes to all.

-Mark Roberts
how absurd it is that our leaders now longer allow us to heckle them with freedom of speech, or let us protest outside the houses of parliment without arranging it first, which they could always reject. how absurd it is that if you think anything differant to a goverment story you given a tag as a conspiracy theorists and nutter. how absurd it is our freedoms are restricted in the name of terror, ID cards, camera's everywhere, police can arrests almost anyone under the terrorism act and if you think age ,gender or race matters think again, how absurb that our goverments criminalise those with freedom of speech, and yet your moaning about critics corner? open your eyes.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

Jay Ref wrote:
alwun wrote:
It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.


AntiSemitism raises it's ugly mug yet again in the trooth movement. No one need put words into your nasty mouth do they?

Quote:
JewNazi, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi

Terms used by particularly vocal opponents of Israel and Zionism and some anti-Semites [17] [18] [19] [20][21] [22] [23] who advocate the view that aspects of Judaism, Zionism, or Israeli government policy towards Arabs and Muslims are fascist or similar to behavior thought typical of Nazis. The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, has stated that comparing "contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is one example of the way "in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel."[24] In 2003, Google News described the term "Zionazi" as a "degrading, hateful slur" and refused to index San Francisco Independent Media Center (SF Indymedia) because it used it; SF Indymedia agreed that it "could be considered hate speech. "


So now the troothseekers crawl into the sack with the antisemites as they allow what even indymedia considers "hate speech". Well, we pretty well know who's gonna be on top...and the result...ugly kids that no one wants.

-z


Please, for the sake of humanity, stop flinging around the old "anti-Semitism" accusation.

Zionism does not equal Judaism. If you believe it does, you may wish to go for a mental evaluation by a qualified psychiatrist.

Judaism and Zionism are two completely separate things. I personally find Zionism to be a disgusting ideology, but I have no more problem with Judaism than I do with Christianity or Islam or Paganism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

coconut wrote:
Jay Ref wrote:
alwun wrote:
It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.


AntiSemitism raises it's ugly mug yet again in the trooth movement. No one need put words into your nasty mouth do they?

Quote:
JewNazi, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi

Terms used by particularly vocal opponents of Israel and Zionism and some anti-Semites [17] [18] [19] [20][21] [22] [23] who advocate the view that aspects of Judaism, Zionism, or Israeli government policy towards Arabs and Muslims are fascist or similar to behavior thought typical of Nazis. The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, has stated that comparing "contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is one example of the way "in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel."[24] In 2003, Google News described the term "Zionazi" as a "degrading, hateful slur" and refused to index San Francisco Independent Media Center (SF Indymedia) because it used it; SF Indymedia agreed that it "could be considered hate speech. "


So now the troothseekers crawl into the sack with the antisemites as they allow what even indymedia considers "hate speech". Well, we pretty well know who's gonna be on top...and the result...ugly kids that no one wants.

-z


Please, for the sake of humanity, stop flinging around the old "anti-Semitism" accusation.

Then stop doing it or supporting those who do. If you don't think "Zionazi" is not an antisemitic term then you are in a clear minority as (read above) even indymedia admits it is "hatespeech".
Quote:

Zionism does not equal Judaism. If you believe it does, you may wish to go for a mental evaluation by a qualified psychiatrist.


Go * yourself.
Quote:

Judaism and Zionism are two completely separate things. I personally find Zionism to be a disgusting ideology, but I have no more problem with Judaism than I do with Christianity or Islam or Paganism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com


Just about everything you type is a huge steaming pile of bs...this is no exception.

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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

coconut wrote:
Judaism and Zionism are two completely separate things.

I see you've fallen victim to the White Nationalist PR campaign, as exemplified by such publications as the American Free Press.

On the oft-cited AFP's links page, you'll find the following:
Sites dedicated to Holocaust denial-- http://www.barnesreview.org/
Sites dedicated to the "Jewish Question"-- http://www.davidduke.com/
Sites dedicated to White Identity politics-- http://members.screenz.com/jreed/
...and other fun sites.

White Nationalists are exploiting the Truth Movement as part of a multi-tiered attempt to mainstream their racist/fascist ideas.

Don't be a sucker.
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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pleased to see that no one has mentioned Zionists or referenced the AFP down here in the Critics Corner in the last couple days. I hope this means that some of you are turning over a new leaf.
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lostpomme
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

Jay Ref wrote:
coconut wrote:
Jay Ref wrote:
alwun wrote:
It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.


AntiSemitism raises it's ugly mug yet again in the trooth movement. No one need put words into your nasty mouth do they?

Quote:
JewNazi, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi

Terms used by particularly vocal opponents of Israel and Zionism and some anti-Semites [17] [18] [19] [20][21] [22] [23] who advocate the view that aspects of Judaism, Zionism, or Israeli government policy towards Arabs and Muslims are fascist or similar to behavior thought typical of Nazis. The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, has stated that comparing "contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is one example of the way "in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel."[24] In 2003, Google News described the term "Zionazi" as a "degrading, hateful slur" and refused to index San Francisco Independent Media Center (SF Indymedia) because it used it; SF Indymedia agreed that it "could be considered hate speech. "


So now the troothseekers crawl into the sack with the antisemites as they allow what even indymedia considers "hate speech". Well, we pretty well know who's gonna be on top...and the result...ugly kids that no one wants.

-z


Please, for the sake of humanity, stop flinging around the old "anti-Semitism" accusation.

Then stop doing it or supporting those who do. If you don't think "Zionazi" is not an antisemitic term then you are in a clear minority as (read above) even indymedia admits it is "hatespeech".
Quote:

Zionism does not equal Judaism. If you believe it does, you may wish to go for a mental evaluation by a qualified psychiatrist.


Go * yourself.
Quote:

Judaism and Zionism are two completely separate things. I personally find Zionism to be a disgusting ideology, but I have no more problem with Judaism than I do with Christianity or Islam or Paganism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com


Just about everything you type is a huge steaming pile of bs...this is no exception.


Maybe i'm missing something here (that's not sarcasm, i would genuinely like to be corrected if i am misunderstood) but i thought Judaism was one of the oldest surviving religions in the world, and Zionism was a political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel. I've known quite a few Jewish people (I was engaged to one) who, while very religious, had nothing but contempt for Zionism.
Coconut's quote above sounds fair, but infact gets a rather childish and inaccurate response. Though i'm open to correction if i dont have my facts straight.

This thread opened with a question on the existence of critics corner. Look at the above quote. Is that debate? If the truth movement wants every thread filled with these narrow minded childish outbursts, by all means, get rid. Until then I think people would like to continue to use the forum for its intended purpose; and keep critics corner for more of the above.
As was said earlier, we are all critics. I've changed many opinions based on well executed arguments put to me by people on these boards.
Maybe one day i'll believe Osama did it, provided I hear a plausible (as aposed to laughable) argument for the case, put forward in a manner slightly more engaging than "Steaming piles of bs" and "Go * yourself".

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

Please review the filth which prompted my response.
Quote:

alwun wrote:
It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.


AntiSemitism raises it's ugly mug yet again in the trooth movement. No one need put words into your nasty mouth do they?

Quote:
JewNazi, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi

Terms used by particularly vocal opponents of Israel and Zionism and some anti-Semites [17] [18] [19] [20][21] [22] [23] who advocate the view that aspects of Judaism, Zionism, or Israeli government policy towards Arabs and Muslims are fascist or similar to behavior thought typical of Nazis. The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, has stated that comparing "contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is one example of the way "in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel."[24] In 2003, Google News described the term "Zionazi" as a "degrading, hateful slur" and refused to index San Francisco Independent Media Center (SF Indymedia) because it used it; SF Indymedia agreed that it "could be considered hate speech. "


So now the troothseekers crawl into the sack with the antisemites as they allow what even indymedia considers "hate speech". Well, we pretty well know who's gonna be on top...and the result...ugly kids that no one wants.

-z


So, do you think the term "Zionazi" is acceptable? Do tell.

-z

_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber

"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense
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lostpomme
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

Jay Ref wrote:
Please review the filth which prompted my response.
Quote:

alwun wrote:
It's a splendid idea. When the disruptors are in full flow, in the manner of over-eager adolescents, the atmosphere becomes quickly polluted. Reasoned debate is impossible to conduct within the constant background static such as can be generated by, for example, bumtious, arrogant, demanding as well as whingeing serial posters. There are reports of sightings of roaming packs, worrying and snapping at the heels of determined yet relatively tender-minded seekers after truth. Best pen them up, and we can safely watch them snarl from a respectable distance. I have identified certainly one Zionazi sympathiser within a recent pack. One of this person's regular tricks is to attempt to put words into peoples' mouths. There is no need to feel abashed by seeking to keep these creatures at bay. Who, in 3D world, would allow a Zionist near their child? or family?..... Exactly.
cheers Al.


AntiSemitism raises it's ugly mug yet again in the trooth movement. No one need put words into your nasty mouth do they?

Quote:
JewNazi, Judeo-Nazi, Zionazi

Terms used by particularly vocal opponents of Israel and Zionism and some anti-Semites [17] [18] [19] [20][21] [22] [23] who advocate the view that aspects of Judaism, Zionism, or Israeli government policy towards Arabs and Muslims are fascist or similar to behavior thought typical of Nazis. The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, has stated that comparing "contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is one example of the way "in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel."[24] In 2003, Google News described the term "Zionazi" as a "degrading, hateful slur" and refused to index San Francisco Independent Media Center (SF Indymedia) because it used it; SF Indymedia agreed that it "could be considered hate speech. "


So now the troothseekers crawl into the sack with the antisemites as they allow what even indymedia considers "hate speech". Well, we pretty well know who's gonna be on top...and the result...ugly kids that no one wants.

-z


So, do you think the term "Zionazi" is acceptable? Do tell.

-z



I had never heard the word previously and would obviously refuse to endorse or condemn it without any experience of the context in which it is used. I would GUESS the word carries the implication that policies of the state of Israel reflect certain actions of the Nazis. That is a statement i believe to be true. If Coconut was using the word in that context i agree with him. And if you think that makes me an anti semite your argument is slightly flawed.
I believe the same thing with regard to the American administration. Is there a convienient label i can be given for stating that opinion also?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

lostpomme wrote:
Maybe i'm missing something here (that's not sarcasm, i would genuinely like to be corrected if i am misunderstood) but i thought Judaism was one of the oldest surviving religions in the world, and Zionism was a political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel. I've known quite a few Jewish people (I was engaged to one) who, while very religious, had nothing but contempt for Zionism.
Coconut's quote above sounds fair, but infact gets a rather childish and inaccurate response. Though i'm open to correction if i dont have my facts straight.

You're quite right to make this distinction, accurately narrowing the term "Zionism" to its limited original definition.

Do you suppose that people who write almost obsessively about Zionists plotting evilly to rule the world, Zionists controlling the media, Zionists doing 9/11, the Zionist banking cartel, Zionists manipulating all manner of world events, that they are talking about a "political movement supporting the formation of the state of Israel"??? Get real, mate. They're talking about TEH JOOOS.
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catfish
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Semite - a member of any of the peoples supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah, including the jews, arabs, assyrians, babylonians and phoenicians.

And not a lot of people know that!

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chipmunk stew
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

lostpomme wrote:
I had never heard the word [Zionazi] previously and would obviously refuse to endorse or condemn it without any experience of the context in which it is used. I would GUESS the word carries the implication that policies of the state of Israel reflect certain actions of the Nazis. That is a statement i believe to be true.

Then you've fallen victim to the PR campaign of Hamas and Hizbullah, too.

Israelis occupy a tiny scrap of desert in a vast Middle East. They have no intention of military expansion, they have no dictatorial heirarchy, they have no policy of genocide. While you may find some of their policies, tactics, and strategies despicable, comparing them to the Nazis is pure hyperbole, an inflammatory comparison meant to demonize Israeli Jews.

It sickens me that you buy into this nonsense.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catfish wrote:
Semite - a member of any of the peoples supposed to be descended from Shem, son of Noah, including the jews, arabs, assyrians, babylonians and phoenicians.

And not a lot of people know that!

True. Anti-Jewish is much more accurate than Antisemitic. But in the vernacular, they mean the same thing.
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catfish
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: the corner shop Reply with quote

chipmunk stew wrote:

Then you've fallen victim to the PR campaign of Hamas and Hizbullah, too.


Me aswell I reckon, the influence those guys have is disgusting. (Warning: sarcasm being employed here)

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