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OK Critics, Explain all these coincidences...
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Sinclair
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject: OK Critics, Explain all these coincidences... Reply with quote

OK JayRef & Johnny Pixels,

I'd like you to provide rational explanations for all the happenstances listed below.

Now us 911 truthers just think that they are coincidences, so you have to come up with a better explanation. Use links if you need to

Go to the original article for the embedded links which may assist you with your research

Happy researching!


    A. That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.

    B. That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank, BCCI, Banco Ambrosiano, the P2 Lodge, the CIA/Mafia anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that. That was then, this is now!

    c. That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a US-record $25 million must embarrass his nephew George, but it's still no justification for leaping to paranoid conclusions.

    D. That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

    E. That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just one of those things - one of those crazy things.

    F. That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is.

    G. That al Qaeda was active in the Balkan conflict, fighting on the same side as the US as recently as 1999, while the US protected its cells, is merely one of history's little aberrations.

    H. The claims of Michael Springman, State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas to al Qaeda members so they could receive training in the United States, sound like the sour grapes of someone who was fired for making such wild accusations.

    I. That one of George Bush's first acts as President, in January 2001, was to end the two-year deployment of attack submarines which were positioned within striking distance of al Qaeda's Afghanistan camps, even as the group's guilt for the Cole bombing was established, proves that a transition from one administration to the next is never an easy task.

    J. That so many influential figures in and close to the Bush White House had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place at the right time.

    K. That the company PTECH, founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 9/11 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.

    L. That whistleblower Indira Singh was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that "that person should be killed," suggests he should take an anger management seminar.

    M. That on May 8, 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications for America's military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

    N. That the standing order which covered the shooting down of hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, as the order was rescinded shortly after 9/11.

    O. That in the weeks before 9/11, FBI agent Colleen Rowley found her investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui so perversely thwarted that her colleagues joked that bin Laden had a mole at the FBI, proves the stress-relieving virtue of humour in the workplace.

    P. That Dave Frasca of the FBI’s Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear on the surface odd, but undoubtedly there's a good reason for it, quite possibly classified.

    Q. That FBI informant Randy Glass, working an undercover sting, was told by Pakistani intelligence operatives that the World Trade Center towers were coming down, and that his repeated warnings which continued until weeks before the attacks, including the mention of planes used as weapons, were ignored by federal authorities, is simply one of the many "What Ifs" of that tragic day.

    R. That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings from foreign intelligence agencies and governments - including those of Germany, France, Great Britain, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Morocco, Afghanistan and others - of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.

    S. That John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial aircraft in July 2001 on account of security considerations had nothing to do with warnings regarding September 11, because he said so to the 9/11 Commission.

    T. That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says he’d taken to John Ashcroft’s office specific warnings he’d learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack – even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets – and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schipper’s pathetic need for attention.

    U. That Garth Nicolson received two warnings from contacts in the intelligence community and one from a North African head of state, which included specific site, date and source of the attacks, and passed the information to the Defense Department and the National Security Council to evidently no effect, clearly amounts to nothing, since virtually nobody has ever heard of him.

    V. That in the months prior to September 11, self-described US intelligence operative Delmart Vreeland sought, from a Toronto jail cell, to get US and Canadian authorities to heed his warning of his accidental discovery of impending catastrophic attacks is worthless, since Vreeland was a dubious character, notwithstanding the fact that many of his claims have since been proven true.

    X. That FBI Special Investigator Robert Wright claims that agents assigned to intelligence operations actually protect terrorists from investigation and prosecution, that the FBI shut down his probe into terrorist training camps, and that he was removed from a money-laundering case that had a direct link to terrorism, sounds like yet more sour grapes from a disgruntled employee.

    Y. That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 9/11 demonstrates only the value of being prepared.

    Z. The suggestion that securing a pipeline across Afghanistan figured into the White House’s calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.

    AA. That Afghanistan is once again the world’s principal heroin producer is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith on the part of the agency.

    BB. Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan’s ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11, because I didn’t read anything about him in the official report.

    CC. That Porter Goss met with Ahmed the morning of September 11 in his capacity as Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has no bearing whatsoever upon his recent selection by the White House to head the Central Intelligence Agency.

    DD. That Goss's congressional seat encompasses the 9/11 hijackers' Florida base of operation, including their flight schools, is precisely the kind of meaningless factoid a conspiracy theorist would bring up.

    EE. It's true that George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 alone in the Oval Office, but what's wrong with old colleagues catching up? And it's true that George HW Bush and Shafig bin Laden, Osama's brother, spent the morning of September 11 together at a board meeting of the Carlyle Group, but the bin Ladens are a big family.

    FF. That FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill, and had a triage centre ready to go that was larger and better equipped than the one that was lost in the collapse of WTC 7, was a lucky twist of fate.

    GG. Newsweek’s report that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.

    HH. That George Bush's telephone logs for September 11 do not exist should surprise no one, given the confusion of the day.

    II. That Mohamed Atta attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows it is a small world, after all.

    JJ. That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi's terms, was disciplined, removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is...contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.

    KK. That Mohammed Atta dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.

    LL. That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Atta’s flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled – the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida – was just bad luck. That Hilliard was not charged shows how specious the claims for conspiracy truly are.

    MM. That Hilliard’s plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal, and that 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal’s attorney before Seal’s murder, shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions.

    NN. Reports of insider trading on 9/11 are false, because the SEC investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so the windfall profit-taking was merely, as ever, coincidental.

    NN. That heightened security for the World Trade Centre was lifted immediately prior to the attacks illustrates that it always happens when you least expect it.

    OO. That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.

    PP. That none of the flight data recorders were said to be recoverable even though they were located in the tail sections, and that until 9/11, no solid-state recorder in a catastrophic crash had been unrecoverable, shows how there's a first time for everything.

    QQ. That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, a Koran, his driver's license and a "how to fly planes" video in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

    RR. The mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, of an Israeli espionage ring surveiling DEA and defense installations and trailing the hijackers, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, does not deserve a response. That the stories also appeared in publications such as Ha'aretz and Forward is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Israeli media.

    SS. That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 9/11 – one simulating the crash of a plane into a building; another, a live-fly simulation of multiple hijackings – and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a bizarre coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

    TT. That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a rookie substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.

    UU. That a recording made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers’ describing what they had witnessed, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is something no doubt that overzealous official wishes he could undo.

    VV. That the FBI knew precisely which Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American feel safer knowing their federal agents are on the ball.

    WW. That a former flight school executive believes the hijackers were "double agents," and says about Atta and associates, "Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose," and was visited by the FBI just four hours after the attacks to intimidate him into silence, proves he's an unreliable witness, for the simple reason there is no conspiracy.

    XX. That Jeb Bush was on board an aircraft that removed flight school records to Washington in the middle of the night on Sept 12th demonstrates how seriously the governor takes the issue of national security.

    YY. To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

    ZZ. Le Figaro’s report in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that the CIA met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.

    AAA. That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama, and Osama alone, masterminded 9/11.

    BBB. That at the battle of Tora Bora, where bin Laden was surrounded on three sides, Special Forces received no order to advance and capture him and were forced to stand and watch as two Russian-made helicopters flew into the area where bin Laden was believed hiding, loaded up passengers and returned to Pakistan, demonstrates how confusing the modern battlefield can be.

    CCC. That upon returning to Fort Bragg from Tora Bora, the same Special Operations troops who had been stood down from capturing bin Laden, suffered a unusual spree of murder/suicides, is nothing more than a series of senseless tragedies.

    DDD. Reports that bin Laden is currently receiving periodic dialysis treatment in a Pakistani medical hospital are simply too incredible to be true.

    EEE. That the White House went on Cipro September 11 shows the foresightedness of America’s emergency response.

    FFF. That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.

    GGG. That the anthrax attacks appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act shows only that appearances can be deceiving.

    HHH. That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick, and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories.

    III. That Republican guru Grover Norquist has been found to have aided financiers and supporters of Islamic terror to gain access to the Bush White House, and is a founder of the Islamic Institute, which the Treasury Department believes to be a source of funding for al Qaeda, suggests Norquist is at worst, naive, and at best, needs a wider circle of friends.

    JJJ. That the Department of Justice consistently chooses to see accused 9/11 plotters go free rather than permit the courtroom testimony of al Qaeda leaders in American custody looks bad, but only because we don't have all the facts.

    KKK. That the White House balked at any inquiry into the events of 9/11, then starved it of funds and stonewalled it, was unfortunate, but since the commission didn't find for conspiracy it's all a non issue anyway.

    LLL. That the 9/11 commission's executive director and "gatekeeper," Philip Zelikow, was so closely involved in the events under investigation that he testified before the the commission as part of the inquiry, shows only an apparent conflict of interest.

    MMM. That commission chair Thomas Kean is, like George Bush, a Texas oil executive who had business dealings with reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mafouz, suggests Texas is smaller than they say it is.

    NNN. That co-chair Lee Hamilton has a history as a Bush family "fixer," including clearing Bush Sr of the claims arising from the 1980 "October Surprise", is of no concern, since only conspiracists believe there was such a thing as an October Surprise.

    OOO. That FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds accuses the agency of intentionally fudging specific pre-9/11 warnings and harboring a foreign espionage ring in its translation department, and claims she witnessed evidence of the semi-official infrastructure of money-laundering and narcotics trade behind the attacks, is of no account, since John Ashcroft has gagged her with the rare invocation of "State Secrets Privilege," and retroactively classified her public testimony. For the sake of national security, let us speak no more of her.

    PPP. That, when commenting on Edmond's case, Daniel Ellsberg remarked that Ashcroft could go to prison for his part in a cover-up, suggests Ellsberg is giving comfort to the terrorists, and could, if he doesn't wise up, find himself declared an enemy combatant.




WE ALL LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR RESPONSES!
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Wokeman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinclair,
Wow! I am proud to have been here.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets start with A.

Oh, that has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the links are related to 9/11. Are they all as good as this?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny Pixels wrote:
Lets start with A.

Oh, that has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the links are related to 9/11. Are they all as good as this?


I have pointed out what i am going to say before.

It is in times like this, when you 'debunkers' are confromted with some serious evidence that you show what you are really about.
I have shown that i can readily, and eagerly, accept when parts of my arguements for 911 are false. GOOD. I AM GLAD. I desparately want to know EXACTLY what happened on 911.
People like yourselves however have NEVER ONCE admitted that any peice of information is suspicious to you. Instead you simply ignore it or you disappear off the thread.
It shows quite clearly that you do NOT have a desire for fact and truth. You simply have a desire to defend your position NO MATTER WHAT evidence is shown to oppose it.

You people claim to hold knowledge and reason as your guides. This quite clearly is not the case. If it were you would GLADLY admit to agreeing with us when aspects of what we say are correct.

You seem to simply be holding on with dear life to the misinformation and bias that exists on 911myths. You are clinging to it desparately. When ever we say somehting that you believe that website to have debunked, you'll eagerly speak out, parroting its 'facts' with self-righteous indignation. Yet when we bring up information that cannot be 'debunked' by that pathetic site you seem to run a mile.

You do not care one bit about 'truth'. As such, it is YOU who are truly desicrating the names of those who died on 911, and all those who have died since.

Your post above is pathetic JP.

Utterly sickening. A true example of the rubbish that you people put out. You are scared to death of the facts about 911. You may be right on many issues but your inability to admit your mistakes makes your opinion absolutely worthless.

Go back to J Ref with the rest of you cowards and dont come back.

You are all apologists to killers. I hope you one day you realise the horrible mistake you have made. If not, please join in the meat grinder with the rest of the helpless fools you have condemned and p!ss off to Iraq to be killed.
You want a war agianst muslims? Go for it. Live up to your worth and fight like your ideology demands.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny Pixels wrote:
Lets start with A.

Oh, that has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the links are related to 9/11. Are they all as good as this?


The first point (A) acknowledges the the existence of 'False Flag' terrorism, undertaken by agents of governments, for ulterior motives.


Johnny, have you never heard of:

the Reichstag Fire (Quote from Wikipedia: 'a pivotal event in the establishment of Nazi Germany'),
the plans for Operation Northwoods, or
the US sponsored/Italian Operation Gladio?

(As one participant in this formerly-secret program Operation Gladio stated:
"You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security.")

Of course, the gubermints/perpetrators don’t wish the general public to be aware of such subjects, but surely a serious truth researcher such as yourself, Johnny, is?

But, of course Johnny, you need to do your own research, as we all have done.

OK, Please respond (either acknowledge or argue that False Flag terrorism doesn’t exist with referenced arguments) & then we can proceed on to point B.

I am prepared to go right to the end of the list Johnny, I hope that you are too

I await your considered response…

PS, on edit
Johnny Pixels wrote:
Are they all as good as this?


Nope, they get much, much better or more & more coincidental

Stick with it Johnny, here in the Critics Corner & argue your case. Maybe JayRef can assist you.

Don't go off obfuscating other threads until you're done with this list...........
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: OK Critics, Explain all these coincidences... Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:

[list]A. That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.


Let's not forget the Israeli Embassy bombing in London in 1994, which was Mossad-led, the Gaddafi plot in 1996, when Islamic extremist terrorists with links to Bin Laden were illegally funded by MI6 to blow up Gaddafi, and the numerous examples of British state collusion in Northern Ireland and Eire.

Well done, Sinclair. This is an amazing summary of the evidence!

Regards

Annie

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone is still taking Johnny Pixels seriously, please see his posts on this thread.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3025

Basically, he says that I "disrupt the debate". On that particular thread, however, I just posted a load of complete nonesense - so much nonesense there was nothing to debate.

Thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeFecToR wrote:
Johnny Pixels wrote:
Lets start with A.

Oh, that has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the links are related to 9/11. Are they all as good as this?


I have pointed out what i am going to say before.

It is in times like this, when you 'debunkers' are confromted with some serious evidence that you show what you are really about.
I have shown that i can readily, and eagerly, accept when parts of my arguements for 911 are false. GOOD. I AM GLAD. I desparately want to know EXACTLY what happened on 911.
People like yourselves however have NEVER ONCE admitted that any peice of information is suspicious to you. Instead you simply ignore it or you disappear off the thread.
It shows quite clearly that you do NOT have a desire for fact and truth. You simply have a desire to defend your position NO MATTER WHAT evidence is shown to oppose it.

You people claim to hold knowledge and reason as your guides. This quite clearly is not the case. If it were you would GLADLY admit to agreeing with us when aspects of what we say are correct.

You seem to simply be holding on with dear life to the misinformation and bias that exists on 911myths. You are clinging to it desparately. When ever we say somehting that you believe that website to have debunked, you'll eagerly speak out, parroting its 'facts' with self-righteous indignation. Yet when we bring up information that cannot be 'debunked' by that pathetic site you seem to run a mile.

You do not care one bit about 'truth'. As such, it is YOU who are truly desicrating the names of those who died on 911, and all those who have died since.

Your post above is pathetic JP.

Utterly sickening. A true example of the rubbish that you people put out. You are scared to death of the facts about 911. You may be right on many issues but your inability to admit your mistakes makes your opinion absolutely worthless.

Go back to J Ref with the rest of you cowards and dont come back.

You are all apologists to killers. I hope you one day you realise the horrible mistake you have made. If not, please join in the meat grinder with the rest of the helpless fools you have condemned and p!ss off to Iraq to be killed.
You want a war agianst muslims? Go for it. Live up to your worth and fight like your ideology demands.


It's supposed to be a list of coincidences, and the first coicidence is that governments can be corrupt. That is not a coincidence, and has nothing to do with 9/11. Just because one government is corrupt does not mean that they all are.

As for the rest of your post, I am not scared of the facts of 9/11 as much as you are. You are scared because there are people who hate you for being you, and no other reason. You find this hard to accept, because there is no logic behind their hatred. By shifting the blame on the government, and making it political you think that you can understand and control the danger. That's why you call for inverstigations, and criminal charges, because the people you shift the blame to are accountable to such things. What scares you is that the people who carried out 9/11, the fanatics, Osama Bin Ladens of this world, do not even care if they live or die. You have trouble dealing with that because they are not accountable to any law. There is no punishment for them, for even the ultimate punishment, death, does not scare them.

I will agree with you when you say something that is correct, but the truth movement has yet to do that.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:
Johnny Pixels wrote:
Lets start with A.

Oh, that has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the links are related to 9/11. Are they all as good as this?


The first point (A) acknowledges the the existence of 'False Flag' terrorism, undertaken by agents of governments, for ulterior motives.


Johnny, have you never heard of:

the Reichstag Fire (Quote from Wikipedia: 'a pivotal event in the establishment of Nazi Germany'),
the plans for Operation Northwoods, or
the US sponsored/Italian Operation Gladio?

(As one participant in this formerly-secret program Operation Gladio stated:
"You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security.")

Of course, the gubermints/perpetrators don’t wish the general public to be aware of such subjects, but surely a serious truth researcher such as yourself, Johnny, is?

But, of course Johnny, you need to do your own research, as we all have done.

OK, Please respond (either acknowledge or argue that False Flag terrorism doesn’t exist with referenced arguments) & then we can proceed on to point B.

I am prepared to go right to the end of the list Johnny, I hope that you are too

I await your considered response…

PS, on edit
Johnny Pixels wrote:
Are they all as good as this?


Nope, they get much, much better or more & more coincidental

Stick with it Johnny, here in the Critics Corner & argue your case. Maybe JayRef can assist you.

Don't go off obfuscating other threads until you're done with this list...........


This one's even easier. The government doesn't want you to know about those plans like Operation Northwoods? Then how the hell do you know about them? If they didn't want you to know, then they wouldn't have let you know about them. Stop and think for once in your life. Operation Northwoods was fully published online on April 30 2001. For a government trying to keep a secret, it really cocked up on that one didn't it? And only 4 months before 9/11? Really. Try thinking about these things.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Johnson wrote:
If anyone is still taking Johnny Pixels seriously, please see his posts on this thread.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3025

Basically, he says that I "disrupt the debate". On that particular thread, however, I just posted a load of complete nonesense - so much nonesense there was nothing to debate.

Thank you.


Well done. Are you naturally an idiot or do you have to practice?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Try thinking about these things.


Johnny

Is that you finished with A.? A diversionary discussion on the release date of Northwoods documents?

C’mon Johnny!! Let’s leave aside the fact that the Northwoods plan promulgated the notion of using planes filled with bogus passengers who were going to suffer a simulated death, in order to agitate the US man/woman in the street into support for a US invasion of Cuba etc.

Let’s also leave aside Operation Gladio, the Reichstag Fire & Annie’s examples of Israeli false flag ops & move onto point B and beyond.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:
Quote:
Try thinking about these things.


Johnny

Is that you finished with A.? A diversionary discussion on the release date of Northwoods documents?

C’mon Johnny!! Let’s leave aside the fact that the Northwoods plan promulgated the notion of using planes filled with bogus passengers who were going to suffer a simulated death, in order to agitate the US man/woman in the street into support for a US invasion of Cuba etc.

Let’s also leave aside Operation Gladio, the Reichstag Fire & Annie’s examples of Israeli false flag ops & move onto point B and beyond.


No, it wasn't diversionary. You can't claim that the government wants to hide these things from the general public, and use them as evidence of government plots, when they release the documents, for you, the general public to read.

I like the way Point A was incredibly important, but now I've shown it to be irrelevant, then Point A needs to be left aside.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johnny

You certainly can't say that the government wanted the Israeli Embassy, the Gaddafi plot or state collusion in Northern Irelend to come out!

They have imprisoned the whistleblowers who dared to expose these things, arrested and prosecuted journalists, and injuncted the media. That doesn't look to me like they were too happy about it all coming out.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You can't claim that the government wants to hide these things from the general public, and use them as evidence of government plots, when they release the documents, for you, the general public to read.


Ha Ha ha Ha.......Johnny, you are full of it.

The Operation Northwoods docs were released in 1997 (35 years after they were written) by the Assassination Records Review Board, an independent agency established to re-examine for release the assassination-related records that federal agencies still regarded as too sensitive to open to the public. The establishment of such agencies ard the resulting release of such documents and information are as a result of the concerted public pressure demanding investigation into nefarious government activities, not because of government information altruism, as you seem to suggest!

C'mon Johnny, you gotta do better than that!
Point A is incredibly important, & you have not, by any means, shown it to be irrelevant.

Do you want to deal the other False flag ops now (I'm sure they'll creep in later) or shall we continuew to B. & beyond?

Your call Johnny..........
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny wrote:
Quote:
The government doesn't want you to know about those plans like Operation Northwoods? Then how the hell do you know about them? If they didn't want you to know, then they wouldn't have let you know about them.


That's your definition of critical thinking? - How about you stop and think for a minute about how rediculous that statement is.

Debunker: "There's no evidence that governments have ever even considered such false-flag attacks... "

CT: :But hang on, what about the Northwoods Document that shows they did consider it..."

Debunker: "Well there you go then... they'd never release something that could ever be used against them"

See the circle?

As for "not having any relevance to 9-11", that shows the blinkers you're using to look at this issue.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:
Quote:
You can't claim that the government wants to hide these things from the general public, and use them as evidence of government plots, when they release the documents, for you, the general public to read.


Ha Ha ha Ha.......Johnny, you are full of it.

The Operation Northwoods docs were released in 1997 (35 years after they were written) by the Assassination Records Review Board, an independent agency established to re-examine for release the assassination-related records that federal agencies still regarded as too sensitive to open to the public. The establishment of such agencies ard the resulting release of such documents and information are as a result of the concerted public pressure demanding investigation into nefarious government activities, not because of government information altruism, as you seem to suggest!

C'mon Johnny, you gotta do better than that!
Point A is incredibly important, & you have not, by any means, shown it to be irrelevant.

Do you want to deal the other False flag ops now (I'm sure they'll creep in later) or shall we continuew to B. & beyond?

Your call Johnny..........


But if the government didn't want to release these things then they'd still classify them as secret. Because you don't know what is in them, you can't claim that the information is not secret. Therefore anything the government feels is incrimination would never be released, "for operational security reasons". No amount of public pressure i sgoing to make the government release a document that incriminates them.

But still, the idea that some governments are corrupt does not mean that all governments are corrupt. Think about it. If one person on your side was say, a murderer, that doesn't make all conspiracy theorists murderers, or even capable of murder. It is only proof that that one person is a murderer.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: OK Critics, Explain all these coincidences... Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:
OK JayRef & Johnny Pixels,

I'd like you to provide rational explanations for all the happenstances listed below.

Now us 911 truthers just think that they are coincidences, so you have to come up with a better explanation. Use links if you need to

Go to the original article for the embedded links which may assist you with your research

Happy researching!


[list]A. That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.


Guilt by Association is the attempt to discredit an idea based upon disfavored people or groups associated with it. This is the reverse of an Appeal to Misleading Authority, and might be justly called "Appeal to Anti-Authority". An argument to authority argues in favor of an idea based upon associating an authority figure with the idea, whereas Guilt by Association argues against an idea based upon associating it with disreputable people or groups.

Not a "coincidence"...it's simply McCarthyism turned against authority instead of the other way round. Also, just because governments can be corrupt, or have been corrupt in the past, it doesn't mean a particular government is now corrupt. Northwoods has no more bearing on 9/11 than Watergate had on the Iran/Contra affair.
Quote:

B. That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank, BCCI, Banco Ambrosiano, the P2 Lodge, the CIA/Mafia anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that. That was then, this is now!

This isn't a coincidence. It's a list of disparate items we are being asked to "connect the dots" on. The list is so broad and non-specific as to be meaningless...it also sheds no light on 9/11. Or anything else for that matter.

Your entire list just goes on like this. It's a meaningless jumble of crappola that has zero relevance to 9/11. The only thing it's evidence of is your ability to cut/paste lists created by some other nut. This means you can't even cook up your own idiot "Coincidences" you must swipe them from other more capable idiots.

How proud your parents must be....

-z

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freddie wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Quote:
The government doesn't want you to know about those plans like Operation Northwoods? Then how the hell do you know about them? If they didn't want you to know, then they wouldn't have let you know about them.


That's your definition of critical thinking? - How about you stop and think for a minute about how rediculous that statement is.

Debunker: "There's no evidence that governments have ever even considered such false-flag attacks... "

CT: :But hang on, what about the Northwoods Document that shows they did consider it..."

Debunker: "Well there you go then... they'd never release something that could ever be used against them"

See the circle?

As for "not having any relevance to 9-11", that shows the blinkers you're using to look at this issue.


Sorry you're not making sense.

I never said such operations never existed. I said the fact that the fact some governments are corrupt does not follow that all governments are corrupt.

As for your circular reasoning, the first statement is false, so your argument falls at the first hurdle. I said that the government would not have released Operation Northwoods in its entirerity if it was such an obvious pointer to 9/11 complicity, not that there was no evidence of such operations.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not a "coincidence"...it's simply McCarthyism turned against authority


Guy, if you are uncomfortable with the initial points which allude to government complicity in criminal/terrorist activities, not specific to 911, then just skip a few to the 911 related ones.

I'm asking for explanations for all the happenstances listed. if you don't wish to, or can't provide them, then fine....but remember, don't forget to go to the original web-page article for the embedded links, to assist you with your research....
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny wrote:
Quote:
I never said such operations never existed.
- I never said you did... I wrote that simply to illustrate the standard circular arguement employed by many self proclaimed "debunkers".

Quote:
I said the fact that the fact some governments are corrupt does not follow that all governments are corrupt.
- What a boringly obvious statement...nobody is saying that "some" means "all"!

Quote:
I said that the government would not have released Operation Northwoods in its entirerity if it was such an obvious pointer to 9/11 complicity,


Well where is your critical thinking in this premise that the element of the US government involved in the release of the document had anything to do with 9-11? - If only tiny number knew that a similar plan would be used, then the vast majority of the Government would see no harm in releasing it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freddie wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Quote:
I never said such operations never existed.
- I never said you did... I wrote that simply to illustrate the standard circular arguement employed by many self proclaimed "debunkers".


But that's not the argument I was using so why bring it up? Distraction.


Quote:
Quote:
I said the fact that the fact some governments are corrupt does not follow that all governments are corrupt.
- What a boringly obvious statement...nobody is saying that "some" means "all"!


Then why bring it up at all?

Quote:
Quote:
I said that the government would not have released Operation Northwoods in its entirerity if it was such an obvious pointer to 9/11 complicity,


Well where is your critical thinking in this premise that the element of the US government involved in the release of the document had anything to do with 9-11? - If only tiny number knew that a similar plan would be used, then the vast majority of the Government would see no harm in releasing it.


A tiny number of people? How tiny is this number of people? You've got people in the FBI, the CIAm the NSA, the Army, the Airforce. the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, the WTC owners, NIST, the official commision, both democrats and republicans, popular mechanics, me, Jay Ref, the list goes on. How tiny is this conspiracy?

If Northwoods was so pivotal, then the people who cared about it would've made sure it never even came up for review.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:
Quote:
Not a "coincidence"...it's simply McCarthyism turned against authority


Guy, if you are uncomfortable with the initial points which allude to government complicity in criminal/terrorist activities, not specific to 911, then just skip a few to the 911 related ones.

I'm asking for explanations for all the happenstances listed. if you don't wish to, or can't provide them, then fine....but remember, don't forget to go to the original web-page article for the embedded links, to assist you with your research....


Strange, I thought they were all related to 9/11, and now, magically, we can skip a few to the ones that are related? So what you're saying is, argument A, is not related to 9/11? Isn't that what I said and you disagreed with me?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny Pixels wrote:
Quote:
why bring it up? Distraction.


hey Johnny,

You are still only on point A.

Move along now please..............

on edit:

Quote:
Strange, I thought they were all related to 9/11, and now, magically, we can skip a few to the ones that are related? So what you're saying is, argument A, is not related to 9/11? Isn't that what I said and you disagreed with me?


i never said Point A was unrelated.

C'mon Johnny, stop trying to twist my words. Deal with the subject of the points.

Frustrating, isn't it Johnny?!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnny Pixels wrote:
freddie wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Quote:
I never said such operations never existed.
- I never said you did... I wrote that simply to illustrate the standard circular arguement employed by many self proclaimed "debunkers".


But that's not the argument I was using so why bring it up? Distraction.


Quote:
Quote:
I said the fact that the fact some governments are corrupt does not follow that all governments are corrupt.
- What a boringly obvious statement...nobody is saying that "some" means "all"!


Then why bring it up at all?

Quote:
Quote:
I said that the government would not have released Operation Northwoods in its entirerity if it was such an obvious pointer to 9/11 complicity,


Well where is your critical thinking in this premise that the element of the US government involved in the release of the document had anything to do with 9-11? - If only tiny number knew that a similar plan would be used, then the vast majority of the Government would see no harm in releasing it.


A tiny number of people? How tiny is this number of people? You've got people in the FBI, the CIAm the NSA, the Army, the Airforce. the Whitehouse, the Pentagon, the WTC owners, NIST, the official commision, both democrats and republicans, popular mechanics, me, Jay Ref, the list goes on. How tiny is this conspiracy?

If Northwoods was so pivotal, then the people who cared about it would've made sure it never even came up for review.


You forgot the FAA, the techs to wire the towers, the techs to do the drone conversions on 3 airliners and a 757 parts dispensing cruise missile. There's NORAD, FDNY, NYPD, then there's all those pesky structural engineers we'll need MIB handlers for....oh and BTW make that MIB order a large one since we'll need to control SE's worldwide...

The conspiracy's HUGE! ...and not a single whistleblower...not a single bit of hard evidence suggesting the HUGE conspiracy. Wow, they're really good for an incompetent bunch of boobs who inadvertently released NORTHWOODS and blabbed the PLAN all over the public PNAC site!! Perhaps they're idiot-savants??

Who would have ever expected. The Mastermind of the Global Elite is none other than the Rainman.

-z

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay Ref wrote:
The conspiracy's HUGE! ...and not a single whistleblower...not a single bit of hard evidence suggesting the HUGE conspiracy.


Er......I think you'll find that there have been a number of whistleblowers already, including Sibel Edmunds who has been gagged by the administration, so get your facts straight.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay Ref wrote:
Quote:
You forgot the FAA, the techs to wire the towers, the techs to do the drone conversions on 3 airliners and a 757 parts dispensing cruise missile. There's NORAD, FDNY, NYPD, then there's all those pesky structural engineers ...
<...>
The conspiracy's HUGE! ...and not a single whistleblower...not a single bit of hard evidence suggesting the HUGE conspiracy. Wow, they're really good for an incompetent bunch of boobs who inadvertently released NORTHWOODS and blabbed the PLAN all over the public PNAC site!!



Hey Jay Reff, Points

D. That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

J. That so many influential figures in and close to the Bush White House had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place at the right time.

K. That the company PTECH, founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 9/11 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.

L. That whistleblower Indira Singh was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that "that person should be killed," suggests he should take an anger management seminar.

M. That on May 8, 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications for America's military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

&
JJ. That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi's terms, was disciplined, removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is...contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.


touch on some of your observations.

Hopefully though, you'll get to them in time as you work down the list, and you'll be able to explain away the coincidences in detail...

PS remember to check the original article for the links, to aid your research...........
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Annie wrote:
Jay Ref wrote:
The conspiracy's HUGE! ...and not a single whistleblower...not a single bit of hard evidence suggesting the HUGE conspiracy.


Er......I think you'll find that there have been a number of whistleblowers already, including Sibel Edmunds who has been gagged by the administration, so get your facts straight.


So post Sibel Edmunds' evidence. (Hint; no evidence is not evidence of evidence) Rolling Eyes

-z

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinclair wrote:
Jay Ref wrote:
Quote:
You forgot the FAA, the techs to wire the towers, the techs to do the drone conversions on 3 airliners and a 757 parts dispensing cruise missile. There's NORAD, FDNY, NYPD, then there's all those pesky structural engineers ...
<...>
The conspiracy's HUGE! ...and not a single whistleblower...not a single bit of hard evidence suggesting the HUGE conspiracy. Wow, they're really good for an incompetent bunch of boobs who inadvertently released NORTHWOODS and blabbed the PLAN all over the public PNAC site!!



Hey Jay Reff, Points

D. That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

Nonsense.
Quote:

J. That so many influential figures in and close to the Bush White House had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place at the right time.

Out of context nonsense
Quote:

K. That the company PTECH, founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 9/11 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.

unsourced nonsense
Quote:

L. That whistleblower Indira Singh was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that "that person should be killed," suggests he should take an anger management seminar.

Disgruntled nonsense.
Quote:


M. That on May 8, 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications for America's military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

Untrue nonsense.
Quote:

&
JJ. That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi's terms, was disciplined, removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is...contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.

Unsourced disgruntled nonsense...
Quote:

touch on some of your observations.

My observations? Each question is more stupid and nonsensical than the last. It's like a giant pool of stupid and you're trying to drown me in it....better luck next time.
Quote:

Hopefully though, you'll get to them in time as you work down the list, and you'll be able to explain away the coincidences in detail...

Already done. Smile
Quote:

PS remember to check the original article for the links, to aid your research...........


Research complete...anything else? Maybe you want I should examine the NWO's involvement in the Bigfoot experiments?

-z

-z

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Head start for Jref Reply with quote

Dads army comes to mind.

"It`s the COLD TRUTH Captain Mainwaring, they don`t like it up em!"

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Head start for Jref Reply with quote

Snowygrouch wrote:
Dads army comes to mind.

"It`s the COLD TRUTH Captain Mainwaring, they don`t like it up em!"

Very Happy


...makes about as much sense as the OP. Rolling Eyes

-z

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