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Smacking police interrogate Mother reprimanding kids in shop

 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:33 am    Post subject: Smacking police interrogate Mother reprimanding kids in shop Reply with quote

Quote:
Mother trailed by policeman and warned by council for telling off son at checkout


A mother who reprimanded her children at a supermarket was secretly followed by an off-duty policeman and interrogated by fellow officers who reported her to social services.
The 34-year-old, who has had no previous problems with the police, was horrified when she was visited at home by two uniformed officers six weeks after the incident.
They said she had been seen by the off-duty officer who had trailed the family to their house – a 15-minute walk away – to get their address.

During the visit, the officers asked the mother what forms of discipline she imposed on her 11-year-old son and four-year-old daughter.
When she admitted she occasionally gave them a smack ‘as a last resort’, they advised her to stick to the alternative methods she already used, such as withdrawing treats and banning television.
She later received a letter from the local council informing her that the ‘chastisement’ of her children in public had been put ‘on record’.
The mother, who wishes to remain anonymous to protect her children, admits that on the day she took them to the supermarket in Southampton in early August they had been unusually badly behaved because bad weather had kept them indoors.

She admits she threatened her son in the store with a ‘hiding’ if he did not behave and had given him a mild smack earlier in the day for quarrelling with his sister.
But the mother, a regular churchgoer and a bookshop manager, whose 40-year-old husband was until recently a logistics controller at an international aerospace company, said that she smacked her children only ‘two or three times a year, if that’. She said her children had been running around the shop aisles, bickering and fighting with each other. When she reached the till, she made them sit on a bench but they started quarrelling again.
She said: ‘I went over to them, carrying my bags of shopping, and my words were something like, “How dare you behave like this – you’ve been arguing and fighting all day. If you carry on like this you’re going to get another hiding like the one you had earlier.”’
She admitted her language might have sounded harsh but said she had wanted her son to get the message she was really angry.
Her rebuke had the required effect because her children were later very apologetic. Towards the end of September, however, two policemen knocked at her door.
‘I have never been in trouble with the police before and I have a great respect for them, so I was absolutely shocked,’ she said.
‘When they told me about the off-duty officer, I couldn’t believe it.
‘He must have only seen the end part of a long day where they had played up and slid on the floors in the supermarket.’
During the conversation, the police warned her that, in some cases, they had the right to go into schools and talk to children directly, which she said was ‘intimidating’.
Two weeks later, in early October, a letter arrived from Southampton City Council’s Children’s Services Department. Though the letter said no further action would be taken ‘at this time’, it added: ‘We would like to advise you that we do keep the information on record.’ The woman said she felt she had been ‘treated like a criminal’.
Hampshire Police confirmed that an off-duty officer had reported the incident to its child protection team.
A spokesman said: ‘It was not an ordinary telling-off and because of what the woman said and the way her children reacted to it, it gave our officer reasonable grounds for concern. We followed this up, as you would expect any police force to do.’
A spokesman for Southampton City Council said the letter was ‘standard practice’, adding: ‘It is very important that we keep records of any concerns raised to us about children in the city.’
Under the law, mild smacking is allowable under a ‘reasonable chastisement’ defence against common assault. However, punishment that creates visible bruising, grazes, scratches and cuts can lead to action.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226056/Mother-trailed-policem an-warned-council-telling-son-checkout.html?ITO=1490&referrer=yahoo#ix zz0WJkyeIRU
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I worked as a reporter in Southampton, and the council are about as anally retentive as you can get.
Quote:
Southampton council said writing to parents who are brought to its attention was 'standard practice', and that it was 'very important' to keep records of such incidents.
But the Reverend Mark Stocker, whose Spring Road Evangelical Church the mother attends, said: 'She is very upset because she feels it's criminalised her when she's just a loving mother who would never hurt her children. She's so shaken that someone actually followed her home.'
Mike Judge of the Christian Institute think-tank said: 'This woman is a personal friend - and I know she's a good mum. I don't think it's particularly a Christian issue, but we do believe in the family quite strongly, and get worried when the state tries to take over the role of parents.'
Mild smacking by parents is legal, but any punishment that leaves a mark can lead to court action.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's the law Mr Spock
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/31/section/58

Study Claims That Children Who Are "Smacked" Do Better Later In Life
https://jezebel.com/5439153/study-claims-that-children-who-are-smacked -do-better-later-in-life

Hortense Smith
1/03/10 4:40pmFiled to: BRINGING UP BABY

According to a study led by Professor Marjorie Gunhoe of Calvin College, children who are physically disciplined between the ages of two and six end up being more successful and well-adjusted than peers who had never been "smacked."

Gunhoe's study, which took the lives of 2,600 subjects into account, including "detailed interviews with 179 teenagers" determined that children who were disciplined before the age of six tended to do better academically and have more "optimism about the future" than those who were not disciplined during the same developmental period. However, children who were physically disciplined between the ages of seven and eleven were still more likely to be academically more successful, though they showed more negative behavioral traits.

Gunhoe argues that her research proves that parents should not be banned from physically disciplining their children: "The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data. I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You just don't use it for all your jobs." Debates are currently raging in the comment sections of both the Times of London and Daily Mail pieces on the study, as readers attempt to defend or dismantle Gunhoe's work, and, perhaps most interestingly, attempt to clarify the difference between a "smack" and physical abuse.

It's not entirely surprising, I suppose, that Gunhoe's study is already kicking up a great deal of debate: as the Daily Mail notes, "in a recent poll, more than 70% of Britons said they would support children's charities in imposing a ban on hitting of any kind as a form of discipline," and one imagines it will be hard to convince parents who do not agree with physically disciplining their their children to change their minds, no matter what the statistics might say, as evidenced by a comment by British "parenting guru" Penelope Leach, who tells Georgia Warren of the Times of London, "I do not buy this idea that children will learn positive behaviour from being smacked. The law says adults hitting adults is wrong and children should be protected in the same way. Children are people, too."


Young children who are smacked 'go on to be more successful'
By DANIEL MARTIN FOR THE DAILY MAIL UPDATED: 08:55, 4 January 2010
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240279/Children-smacked-young -likely-successful-study-finds.html

Disciplined: Children who have been physically admonished at a young age performed better on all counts

Young children who are smacked by their parents grow up to be happier and more successful than those who have never been hit, research claims.

It found that children who are smacked before the age of six perform better at school when they are teenagers.

They are also more likely to do voluntary work and to want to go to university than those who have never been physically disciplined.

But the study also revealed that children who are smacked after the age of six were more likely to exhibit behavioural problems, such as being involved in fights.

Smacking is currently banned in 20 European countries, including Germany, Spain and the Netherlands.

In Britain 'reasonable chastisement' in the home is allowed unless it leaves a mark.

But the study, by Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of Psychology at Calvin College in the U.S. state of Michigan, found there was not enough evidence to prove that smacking harmed most children.

She said: 'The claims that are made for not spanking children fail to hold up.

'I think of spanking as a dangerous-tool, but then there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You don't use it for all your jobs.'

Professor Gunnoe questioned 2,600 people about being smacked, of whom a quarter had never been physically chastised.

The participants' answers then were compared with their behaviour, such as academic success, optimism about the future, antisocial behaviour, violence and bouts of depression.

Teenagers in the survey who had been smacked only between the ages of two and six performed best on all the positive measures.

Those who had been smacked between seven and 11 fared worse on negative behaviour but were more likely to be academically successful. Teenagers who were still smacked fared worst on all counts.

Parenting guru Penelope Leach disagreed with the findings.

'No good can come from hitting a child,' she said. 'I do not buy this idea that children will learn positive behaviour from being smacked.

'The law says adults hitting adults is wrong and children should be protected in the same way. Children are people too.'

But psychologist Aric Sigman said: 'The idea smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetished view of what punishment is for most parents.

'If it's done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be taught to distinguish this from a punch in the face.'

Two years ago, Britain was criticised by the UN for failing to ban smacking in the home, after experts said it was a form of abuse.

And growing numbers of the public seem to agree: A recent poll found 71 per cent of parents would support a ban on smacking.







Smacked children more successful later in life, study finds
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6926823/Smacked-children- more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html

Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests.
Children should be provided with the same protection against physical assault as adults.
Photo: IAN JONES
Murray Wardop By Murray Wardrop1:26PM GMT 03 Jan 2010
A study found that youngsters smacked up to the age of six did better at school and were more optimistic about their lives than those never hit by their parents.
They were also more likely to undertake voluntary work and keener to attend university, experts discovered.
The research, conducted in the United States, is likely to anger children’s rights campaigners who have unsuccessfully fought to ban smacking in Britain.
Currently, parents are allowed by law to mete out "reasonable chastisement'' on their children, providing smacking does not leave a mark or bruise. These limits were clarified in the 2004 Children’s Act.
But children’s groups and MPs have argued that spanking is an outdated form of punishment that can cause long-term mental health problems.
“While anything more than a light tap is definitely wrong, parents should be allowed the freedom to discipline their children without the fear that they will be reported to police"
Margaret Morrissey
Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, said her study showed there was insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to determine how their children should be punished.
She said: “The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data.
“I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You just don’t use it for all your jobs.”
The research questioned 179 teenagers about how often they were smacked as children and how old they were when they were last spanked.

Their answers were then compared with information they gave about their behaviour that could have been affected by smacking. This included negative effects such as anti-social behaviour, early sexual activity, violence and depression, as well as positives such as academic success and ambitions.
Those who had been smacked up to the age of six performed better in almost all the positive categories and no worse in the negatives than those never punished physically.
Teenagers who had been hit by their parents from age seven to 11 were also found to be more successful at school than those not smacked but fared less well on some negative measures, such as getting involved in more fights.
• Smacking children is a decision for parents
However, youngsters who claimed they were still being smacked scored worse than every other group across all the categories.
Prof Gunnoe found little difference in the results between sexes and different racial groups.
“If it’s done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be trusted to distinguish this from a punch in the face.”
Aric Sigman
The findings were rejected by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, which has fought to ban smacking.
A spokesman for the charity said: "The NSPCC believes that children should have the same legal protection from assault as adults do.
“Other research has shown that smacking young children affects their behaviour and mental development, and makes them more likely to be anti-social.”
• Smacking makes children naughtier: research
However, Parents Outloud, the pressure group, welcomed the research, saying parents should not be criminalised for mild smacking.
Its spokeswoman, Margaret Morrissey, said: “It is very difficult to explain verbally to a young child why something they have done is wrong.
“A light tap is often the most effective way of teaching them not to do something that is dangerous or hurtful to other people – it is a preventive measure.

“While anything more than a light tap is definitely wrong, parents should be allowed the freedom to discipline their children without the fear that they will be reported to police.”
Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier, told the Sunday Times: “The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment or smacking is for most parents.
“If it’s done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be trusted to distinguish this from a punch in the face.”
Previous studies have suggested that smacking children can lead them to develop behavioural problems such as being more aggressive.
• British parents should be banned from smacking, United Nations report says
• Smacking never right, say doctors

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scotland to ban parents from smacking their children with landmark legislation
Bill proposed by Green MSP John Finnie will remove 'justifiable assault' defence, which allows parents to use physical punishment
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scotland-smacking-ban- corporal-punishment-parents-children-john-finnie-bill-justifiable-assa ult-a8009111.html

Catriona Webster
Thursday 19 October 2017 14:00
15 comments

About 50 countries have already introduced similar bans, but this makes Scotland the first in the UK

The smacking of children will be banned in Scotland, the Scottish government has confirmed.

Ministers have said they will ensure that a Bill brought forward by Green MSP John Finnie would become law.

The legislation will remove the defence of “justifiable assault” in Scottish law, which allows parents to use physical punishment to admonish a child.

Read more

Welsh parents could be banned from smacking their children
The move would make Scotland the first part of the UK to introduce a ban on smacking children.

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: “Mr Finnie’s proposals are not a Scottish Government Bill; however, we will ensure the proposals become law.

“We believe physical punishment can have negative effects on children, which can last long after the physical pain has died away.

“We support positive parenting through, for example, funding for family support services.”

The statement follows First Minister Nicola Sturgeon’s confirmation in her programme for government last month that ministers would “not oppose” Mr Finnie’s Bill.

She highlighted that about 50 countries – including France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Ireland – had already made the change.

The detailed document setting out Ms Sturgeon’s legislative programme appeared to go further, stating the government would support the proposals.

Scottish Labour announced earlier this week it would also support the bill as “the right thing to do”.

Mr Finnie said: “It is especially welcome that the Scottish Government has reiterated its support for my bill, because there is clear evidence that the use of physical punishment is detrimental to children’s long-term health and wellbeing.

“Giving children equal protection against assault will send a clear message to all of us about how we treat each other, and underpin Scotland’s efforts to reduce violence.

“The physical punishment of children is already illegal in 52 countries, and my proposal will give children in Scotland the necessary protections to flourish in a healthy environment and encourage the building of stronger relationships between children, their parents and others who care for them.”

PA



comment by thetim

This makes me sad. There is a clear difference between a smack on the hand or the bottom, delivered with control and restraint, and an uncontrolled beating. I was smacked as a child, but never assaulted. I always understood why I was being disciplined; it wasn’t arbitrary or capricious.

I suspect that a fair fraction of those who have been the parent of a wilful and irrational toddler might see things similarly.

To make an argument that might provoke a good slice of faux outrage, sometimes your dog needs a tap on the nose to teach them not to pee on the furniture. I don’t equate children with dogs - but sometimes a direct response is effective where an hour’s extensive discussion of the pros and cons of a particular behavioural pattern is beyond the capacity of the recipient to understand.

Further, a smack which deals with the situation quickly allows the resumption of a normal and happy relationship much more quickly than banishing the child to their room, or sitting them at the bottom of the stairs, or denying them privileges etc. All of these drag out the period of disgrace, which in itself can be harmful.




Anything designed to cause harm is not discipline. That includes lashing out to vent aggression or frustration, but it also includes the more insidious acts of verbally belittling a child, or indeed using any of your superior capabilities against them. To believe that hitting is the only way to hurt a child would be silly.

Discipline is designed to correct without causing harm. That can be physical or can take other forms.

Failing to address your child’s behaviour before it develops into something more ingrained is cowardice too. It need not be by smacking them, but there are situations where this is an appropriate form of discipline.

Equating physical discipline with assault misses the point.



Scorpyon
/facepalm
No... just no.
Unless your goal is to remove any degree of respect your children barely even had for you in the first place and are happy to simply play the role of the "joke" parent... in which case, by all means follow this inept piece of advice...

Scorpyon

Never mind, Scotland. You had a good run.
Enjoy your Lord of the Flies styled civilisation as the undisciplined kids destroy you from within.
Can’t believe people are dumb enough in this day and age not to realise that discipline is essential to preventing terrorism like Antifa spreading. Maybe come join the sensible parents here in the 21st Century?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smacking ban: parents who act in ‘heat of moment’ unlikely to be prosecuted, MSPs told
https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/smacking-children-in-heat-of-moment- unlikely-to-be-prosecuted-msps-told/
Police have indicated they won't pursue people who acted reasonably after ban is brought in
Chris Green Thursday February 28th 2019


Charity chief says proposed smacking ban will not criminalise parents
Acting after a child ran into the road could be seen as reasonable
Opponents of plans say genuine cases might get lost in 'sea of complaints'

Scottish parents smacking their children “in the heat of the moment” are unlikely to face prosecution by police even after a proposed ban is brought in, MSPs have been told.

Clare Simpson of the charity coalition Parenting Across Scotland said police had indicated that they would not target parents who were reacting reasonably to something their child had done.

“If there were a smack, a light smack in the heat of the moment, the police said that generally that would not be considered assault”

Clare Simpson

She said a shocked parent lightly smacking a child who had just run out into the road would not be considered assault by officers, but if they punished them later then it might be.

Ms Simpson was giving evidence to Holyrood’s Equalities and Human Rights committee, which is considering plans to make Scotland the first part of the UK to ban smacking.

The Equal Protection from Assault Bill will remove the defence of “justifiable assault” from Scots law, which can currently be used by parents who physically punish their children.

The move is being backed by the Scottish Government, but in October a poll found that banning smacking was supported by only 30 per cent of the public.

Green MSP John Finnie has been campaigning for a change in the law on smacking (Photo: Scottish Parliament)
Green MSP John Finnie has been campaigning for a change in the law on smacking (Photo: Scottish Parliament)
Critics have warned that the change risks “criminalising parents”, with Police Scotland admitting that there were likely to be an increase in reports as a result of the Bill.

But Ms Simpson said other countries such as New Zealand, where smacking has been outlawed since 2007, had not seen a rise in parents being hauled before the courts as a result.

Cases will be ‘screened’
A report on the impact of the New Zealand law concluded that parents had not been subject to “unnecessary state intervention for occasionally lightly smacking their children”, she told MSPs.

She also said that an expert group set up by Scottish Government to look at the possible impact of a ban had heard that police would do an “assessment” of each case and screen out minor incidents.

“One of the cases, because it always seems to be the thing that people cite, is what if a child ran into the road? Most of us, whether it be adult or child, would pull them back,” she said.

“If there were a smack, a light smack in the heat of the moment, the police said that generally that would not be considered assault.

“There was a clarity and a distinction about the ‘heat of the moment’ and an assessment that that was not a method of physical punishment.”

More on Scotland
Dr Louise Hill, of the Centre for Excellence for Looked After Children at the University of Strathclyde, said prosecutions for assault could actually fall due to the “culture change” that the new law would bring about.

However, the plans were criticised by Dr Stuart Waiton of Abertay University, who warned that children being “seriously abused and battered” might get lost in a “sea of complaints”.

Demonstrating a slap on the wrist, he told MSPs: “I would just plead to your common sense that if you think that doing that to a small child is a form of violence that harms them, then you are living on another planet.”

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Police and teachers back Welsh anti-smacking bill
Frontline professional say legislation will make child protection easier
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/02/police-and-teachers-ba ck-welsh-anti-smacking-bill

Steven Morris

@stevenmorris20
Fri 2 Aug 2019 00.01 BST Last modified on Tue 6 Aug 2019 18.02 BST
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The bill will need to go through several further stages before it becomes law in Wales.
The bill will need to go through several further stages before it becomes law in Wales. Photograph: Rebecca Naden/PA
A government bill to ban parents from physically punishing children in Wales has received a boost after attracting support from police, social workers and teachers.

Frontline professionals have said legislation to stop fathers, mothers and other adults acting in a parental capacity smacking to punish would make their task of protecting children easier.

The Welsh assembly’s children, young people and education committee has been scrutinising the Labour-led government’s bill and has heard from hundreds of parents, organisations and professionals.

In a report published on Friday the committee said concerns had been flagged up by some that the new law could be confusing, costly and hard to police. Some parents and church groups also argued parents had the right to teach children right from wrong by smacking.


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The committee chair, Lynne Neagle, said members accepted there were strongly held views on both sides. But she said: “An important part of our work has been to hear from those working on the front line with responsibility for protecting children. Those we have spoken to include the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, social services, teacher representatives and a wide range of health professionals including GPs, nurses, health visitors, paediatricians and psychiatrists.

“Without exception, these frontline professionals have told us that this bill will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clear. We have been told that, as a result, this will help them better protect children. Professionals also told us that this bill will make a significant difference because it provides a clear line for them and, importantly, a clear boundary that parents, children and the wider public can clearly understand.

“On balance, the majority of our committee believes there is a strong argument that this bill will reduce the risk of potential harm to children and young people.”

But the committee also set out 20 recommendations including making sure there is a wide-ranging campaign to raise awareness about any new law and providing more support for parents so that they did not have to resort to smacking.

It also said that the government needed to find ways of making sure visitors – including English tourists – knew that smacking was not acceptable in Wales. The committee also said clear advice should be given on what people can do if they believe they have seen a child being physically punished.

Members also flagged up that the potential annual financial allocation for the bill’s awareness campaign is only approximately half the spend on the campaign relating to smoking in cars.

If the plans become law, the defence of “reasonable punishment” that has been in force since Victorian times in England and Wales would be removed.

Ministers in Cardiff argue that mothers and fathers would still be able to parent effectively, claiming the proposed law would not stop a parent from grabbing a child about to step out into a busy road, or brushing a youngster’s hair against his or her will.

Among the sceptics is the charity the Christian Institute, which told the committee parents who use unreasonable or immoderate physical punishment can already be prosecuted and added: “It [smacking] is just one of the means good parents may use to teach their children right from wrong.”

A church in Wrexham argued: “It [the bill] treats child abuse and a loving smack as one and the same thing.”

The bill will need to go through several further stages before it becomes law, and the final decision will rest with all 60 assembly members. A debate will take place next month and members will decide then if it should progress to the next stage.

In May the Scottish parliament voted by a significant majority in favour of banning the physical punishment of children. The bill passed its crucial stage one-vote by 80 votes to 29.

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