US: Is Ron Paul in with a fighting chance?

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TmcMistress
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Post by TmcMistress »

karlos wrote: The sad thing is there are still thick americans like TMC who will vote for these crooks rather than the only decent candidate Ron Paul
That was unnecessary and stupid, though coming from you at this point I'm honestly not surprised.

FYI, I'm not voting for any of these clowns. As I said at the top of this page, had you bothered to read, Paul is the best candidate running this time around. Unfortunately, that doesn't amount to much for me, since I disagree with several of his more prominent policies.

Apologies for thinking for myself, I'll try to quit that pesky habit from now on, promise.
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Post by karlos »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlQNa0_Vn_I[/youtube]

how can you not vote for him?
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Post by uselesseater »

Dogsmilk wrote:
Who thinks that?
Ok, in the absence of state provided healthcare, what infrastructure are you proposing that will effectively, fairly and consistently cater for those with Mcjobs, the homeless, the unemployed, the elderly etc.
(not that the NHS, in it's continued destruction, always oes that now. But the system in principle remains the most sensible one IMO)
I'm not proposing one I was just answering your initial question. I think there needs to be a properly informed debate.
Dogsmilk wrote:
Because a) They would rather be free than tax slaves and
b) Socialised healthcare is a great pretext for any government to start dictating your life to you, should they wish.
c) It's a convenient black hole with inbuilt criticism imunity for government to pour cash into to keep you dependent.
d) It's corporate welfare for big pharma.
e) Most of the professionals are compartmentalized and indoctrinated into pushing highly toxic drugs or long term maintainence treatments whilst they make fun of real medicen.
a/That's simply rhetoric. Personally, despite the fact I earn a reasonable wage....

b/How?

d/So is private medicine. BUPA don't treat you with colloidal silver, Reichian therapy and dietary supplements. The relationship of medics with big pharma and the paradigms adopted by doctors are intrinsic to the medical profession par se.

e/Same again in regular private medicine.
a) Your 'feeling' on tax don't make anything rhetoric or not. It's a valid answer to your question.

b) Once you have socialised healthcare the government then have an argument that you must follow their guidlines on diet, lifestyle etc... for the good of society as a whole. They are already doing it begining with mandatory health checks, soon you will be forced to take the vaccines.

It's the problem with Socialism itself i.e. it's opposed to freedom. Because in emphasises society over the individual it's an instant pretext to impose anything they want as long as the public will buy the reasons they are giving.

d) With centralised government conrol it's far easier to stop any healthcare establishments going off on their own alternative tangent with differnet treatments. NHS and Bupa hardly represents choice or a free market, it's a monopoly between them.
Dogsmilk wrote: The Americans have their own brand with its own terminology which is quite popular in this 'scene'. I blame Advertising, sorry, Prison Planet.com. and the like.
It's not about the terminology it's about the age old idea of the rights of the sovereign individual. The reason we don't hear about it in this country is that we have had a very good job of indoctrination done on us by our experts.
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Post by GazeboflossUK »

karlos wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlQNa0_Vn_I[/youtube]

how can you not vote for him?
Yeah.

I wish they would have stopped talking over each other.....that's the problem with that show....Paul got a reasonable time to talk but the segment was FAR too short.

I'd be pissed off if I'd turned up there for those few minutes.
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Post by Dogsmilk »

I'm not proposing one I was just answering your initial question. I think there needs to be a properly informed debate.
You initially stated people should just help each other out, but I don't know how this would be supposed to work in any kind of egalitarian and comprehensive fashion. The question is important because the issue of exactly what would replace a tax funded universal healthcare system is vital. If it's anything like America, it would condemn hundreds of thousands of people to sub-standard or non-existent medical treatment.

a) Your 'feeling' on tax don't make anything rhetoric or not. It's a valid answer to your question.
t's not about the terminology it's about the age old idea of the rights of the sovereign individual. The reason we don't hear about it in this country is that we have had a very good job of indoctrination done on us by our experts.
But it raises the question of what freedom is. For example, if you pay no tax but earn a low wage or lose your job, become ill and find you cannot afford treatment you are not free to pursue your life as you wish as your options are constrained by your illness. So maybe you don't have sickness benefit either as that is derived from evil taxation. You are ill, can't work, can't pay a doctor and have no income. You maybe have no close family or they lack the means to subsidise you as they too are poor. How does this make you free? Of course this doesn't apply to the wealthy - they get to keep all their income so are much better off and can be more free - otherwise they might be paying a higher rate of tax to send some of their excess wealth back towards the poor. They can profit off your labour while you can work (as a wage slave), but you can take your freedom and do one if you are no longer able.
I agree the individual is important and I agree that purely thinking in crude utilitarian terms is not a good idea, particularly if you have leaders who are imposing the ideas. However, this again leads to what good the sovereign individual is if they can't express that individuality. See, I think we've been indoctrinated in the other direction; doing away with tax
benefits the rich a lot more than the poor if it's in any way progressive taxation (our tax system is not as progressive as it should be, and Brown doing away with that lower band recently was pretty disgusting). Safety nets for the weak and needy really benefit, well, useless eaters. Why take money of the rich to help these people have more practical freedom when they're not being economically productive or can just be replaced by another drone?
Having access to a doctor whenever you need it is a right I think is of paramount importance for the sovereign individual.
b) Once you have socialised healthcare the government then have an argument that you must follow their guidlines on diet, lifestyle etc... for the good of society as a whole. They are already doing it begining with mandatory health checks, soon you will be forced to take the vaccines.

It's the problem with Socialism itself i.e. it's opposed to freedom. Because in emphasises society over the individual it's an instant pretext to impose anything they want as long as the public will buy the reasons they are giving.
What mandatory health checks? On the NHS? Some employers are moving in that direction, but that's about capitalism wanting its worker bees operating at optimal efficiency, not universal healthcare. Every year I get offered the flu vaccine (I'm mildly asthmatic), but no-one appears to care I never take up the offer. Ok if mums are forced to give kids vaccines that would be authoritarian but does that happen? And what private system would prevent that? - medical insurers are very likely to not insure people who won't have vaccines doctors (not the government – the govt does not run the medical profession or tell it what is effective) claim prevent diseases.
It's weird how if the govt are so keen to consolidate their power over health provision, they're simultaneously trying to run it like a business and farm as much as possible out to private sector.
But yeah, there are lots of debates about lifestyle, but I always thought that was about expensive resources used on preventable illness and if that's justified. I disagree with e.g. not treating smokers as it's their own fault or whatever, but as it is doctors just tend to moan at you for your bad habits - after sixty years of the hideous socialist NHS.
Mind you, try getting cheap health insurance if you've a sixty a day habit...
Anyway, I know managerial type people who've attended consultation sessions with ministers present at Westminster and from what I can gather the blunt truth is they simply don't know what they're doing. These days it's all KPIs and trying to produce figures that make it look like everything works well, except the figures bear scant resemblance to reality.

Socialism doesn't necessarily emphasise society over the individual. And emphasising the individual over society isn't necessarily any better. We do, after all, live in a society. You simply cannot be free unless that society gives you the opportunity to be free. Rather than putting everyone at the same starting line and bad luck to those that finish last.
d) With centralised government conrol it's far easier to stop any healthcare establishments going off on their own alternative tangent with differnet treatments. NHS and Bupa hardly represents choice or a free market, it's a monopoly between them.
But there already is very much a free market in alternative health - you can get pretty much anything you want if you pay for it. Which surely you should just be happy with if you could opt out of tax and the NHS; just as long as you can afford to pay for the treatment.
BUPA don't do it because they go with what the medical establishment thinks.
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Post by TmcMistress »

It's the problem with Socialism itself i.e. it's opposed to freedom.
First, you're wrong. Second, as opposed to what? Free-market capitalism? A capitalist society requires a lower class to function. For all the rhetoric about "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps", no matter how many people go to college, there's always going to be a need for factory workers, produce harvesters, etc. What exact kind of freedom is that?

Socialism, in its ideal state, would not subjugate the individual for the betterment of society, but rather would make personal growth a priority instead of financial and material growth.
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Rather than putting everyone at the same starting line and bad luck to those that finish last.
Just to be clear, I wouldn't suggest we all start at the same starting line either - that's obviously not going to happen.
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Post by uselesseater »

Dogsmilk:

Granted if you are under a monopoly/robber barrron type of capitalist system you are not free. However, instituting a centralised power structure i.e. another monopoly, does not make you any more free. It means you are dependent and therefore compliant.

As I said people should help others who have less. Obvioulsy this is unlikely in the current cultural climate. This shows that the free market model is just as idealistic, if not more than socialism. How you would preserve a free market is open to debate.


Re the alternative health market. The demand or money that people might be able to use for this is already sucked up by taxes making it not free market.

TCM:

You're also talking about a robber barron capitalism which is the opposite of free market, despite current rhetoric which claims free market. But why is being a factory worker not freedom? Freedom doesn't mean not having to work but rather that you are free to pursue the career of your choice. There will always be people who are in fact happy to do these jobs which you seem to think have less worth than others.
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Post by Dogsmilk »

uselesseater wrote:Dogsmilk:

Granted if you are under a monopoly/robber barrron type of capitalist system you are not free. However, instituting a centralised power structure i.e. another monopoly, does not make you any more free. It means you are dependent and therefore compliant.

As I said people should help others who have less. Obvioulsy this is unlikely in the current cultural climate. This shows that the free market model is just as idealistic, if not more than socialism. How you would preserve a free market is open to debate.


Re the alternative health market. The demand or money that people might be able to use for this is already sucked up by taxes making it not free market.

TCM:

You're also talking about a robber barron capitalism which is the opposite of free market, despite current rhetoric which claims free market. But why is being a factory worker not freedom? Freedom doesn't mean not having to work but rather that you are free to pursue the career of your choice. There will always be people who are in fact happy to do these jobs which you seem to think have less worth than others.
How does a public health service foster dependence?
We are all prone to illness but we tend not to know when or if we'll get seriously ill. Doctors, surgeons, nurses etc need to do their job full time so need to be paid so they can survive to do their job and need the equipment to do it.
On one hand, we all chip in a set amount to pay for this infrastructure based on our means on the understanding that we draw out as much as we need when we need it. A rich person may pay proportionately more and never get sick. If they resent that, I say they're a selfish chunt who refuses to help out their fellow man.
All this means is we depend on a doctor when we get ill. Like anyone who gets ill does.
If you think there aren't enough alternative treatments., this is a problem regarding what treatment contemporary medicine deems appropriate, not how medicine is provided.
On the other, we pay our own way. Realistically, this means insurance as most people simply couldn't pay the bill for a triple heart bypass if they suddenly needed one. This is a similar system except without the egalitarian dynamic and the company pockets a big profit and is likely to cut off your treatment when the cash runs out. They're not in this for the good of your health. Furthermore, they will charge more for higher 'risk' cases. The more you need help, the more you pay. Smokers etc are penalised.
Otherwise, we help each other out. Now given most of us can't just pop round and give the Mavis next door a lung transplant, however generous of spirit we are, this relies on doctors dishing out charity at their discretion. They are highly unlikely to pay for the lung transplant however kind they are. So poor elderly Mavis needing a lung transplant but with no insurance will likely die.
What other alternatives are there?
Would you really be happy if when you got sick you were expected to simply pay for whatever treatment you needed for however long, regardless of your income, or else go grovelling for charity? Is that a civilised way to run a society?

I don't understand what this 'nice' free market is. Free markets are social darwinism in action.

I happen to think people like factory workers, cleaners, bin men etc are very important and of tremendous value. They really keep society working and things would grind to a halt if such jobs weren't done. However, many such jobs can be done by many people with relatively rudimentary training and thus if you want to maximise profit (the overriding golden rule of capitalism), you will pay as little as you can get away with. It's not 'socialism' that means you get paid millions for kicking a ball round a park one or two times a week but buttons for stopping us getting overrun with our own nonsense. I think the 'low status' jobs should be deeply valuable, but the market will always think otherwise. However, feeling trapped packing envelopes into boxes or whatever for thirty years just so you can pay the mortgage and make someone else rich is not what I personally call 'freedom'.
Teenagers being paid a dollar a day or less to sew garments in Indonesia aren't there because they love their freedom and are expressing it the only way they know how. They are there because market forces+no 'socialist' labour protection or unions means it makes sound economic sense and thousands of people have no other option except to starve. Pure unregulated free market capitalism looks like a sweat shop full of child slaves. Or how would a 'truly' free market prevent this?
But these slaves too are 'free' - they can quit whenever they want. And do what...? Still, so many shanty towns to choose from - could sell up and downsize to a smaller makeshift shack by an open sewer outside another city...Hey - but these kids aren't paying tax for healthcare! Nosiree, these plucky gals enjoy the full benefit of their pittance and just work on through that amoebic dysentry!
Still, for those who moan about being stuck being paid nonsense money for mind-numbing graft - really you should just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Get on yer bike. Realistic alternatives like that.
But if you don't want to get lower than the actual value of your labour (a wage) you could start a business and pay other people less than the actual value of their labour to line your own pockets. And if you want to remain competitive, you'll get your widgets made more cheaply in China. It's survival of the fittest in the market place, so keep those costs down, and remember labour costs are easier to trim than most others.
On the other hand you could start a collective, but that's a hideous socialist idea. Like unions. These goddam plebs don't realise the best way to fight the elites is not to organise to stop the people at the top of the darwinist survival tree creaming off exactly as much as they want.
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Post by uselesseater »

Dogsmilk wrote:
How does a public health service foster dependence?
Well I was speaking of welfare in general but it extends to public health too.

You're dependent because they tax your tax and then you have to depend on them to supply you with some kind of service of whatever quality.
Dogsmilk wrote:
I don't understand what this 'nice' free market is. Free markets are social darwinism in action.
Corrupt monopoly capitalism is social darwinism.

Private individuals growing cabages and trading some of them for parsnips without any obligation to pay tax in any part of the process is a nice free market.

Of course there always needs to be taxation on corporate profits, but not labour i.e. income tax.

Government taxing individuals = not freedom

Government taxing corporations = freedom (as corporations don't have the same rights as people)
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Well I was speaking of welfare in general but it extends to public health too.

You're dependent because they tax your tax and then you have to depend on them to supply you with some kind of service of whatever quality.
Welfare only fosters dependance where wages are so nonsense you may as well stay on benefits.
As it is, basic JSA hardly funds an opulent lifestyle.
In theory, the public have control over service quality via the ballot box. Otherwise, you are simply dependent on a private entity which only exists to make money.
Corrupt monopoly capitalism is social darwinism.

Private individuals growing cabages and trading some of them for parsnips without any obligation to pay tax in any part of the process is a nice free market.
The sytem you describe is a simple barter economy not capitalism. It is also untenable in today's society with its complex manufacturing and infrastructure.
Capitalism is driven by the profit motive. In order to maximise profit you need to be competitive. You thus have an inbuilt rational drive to engulf, undercut or drive out the competition. A system built on competition inevitably produces a 'survival of the fittest' dynamic.
Of course there always needs to be taxation on corporate profits, but not labour i.e. income tax.

Your employer already 'taxes' your labour as it is not in their interest to pay you the full worth they get for selling on the product of it. This 'tax' is one people strangely never seem to want to challenge.
Government taxing individuals = not freedom

Government taxing corporations = freedom (as corporations don't have the same rights as people)
Corporations do have fundamentally the same rights as a person. In law, theyare a person.
I agree taxing corporations a big whack is generally better and they are buggers for avoiding it. It always annoys me how fiddling a bit of extra cash from the dole gets tabloid hysteria, while corporate tax dodging worth billions is ignored. I also think no taxpayer money should be given to private corporations which are expected to be making a profit.
But though I resent how so much of my tax is wasted or used for really bad stuff, I still don't mind chipping in within my means to provide a universal infrastructure which I think is simply rational and civilised.
For me:
state benefits - yes
healthcare - yes
public libraries - yes
dustbins - yes
(a bit for) the arts - yes
schools - yes
fire brigade - yes
police - slash their budget!
etc
- I don't feel my freedom curtailed by such things. I feel it is enhanced if anything. At least I can just call a fire engine, see a doctor, order a book, get on the net, get my rubbish removed etc without worrying about it.
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Post by festival of snickers »

i wouldn't vote for ron paul

he makes me sick with his squeally voice and his anti welfare against the poor

who the hell is going to vote for him? randy weaver? and a few crazy libertarians?

some of the stuff he says could be true i guess
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Post by GazeboflossUK »

He's not "Anti Poor" you fool. How simple.

Also his voice makes you sick?.. My god.

Deep. :roll:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TZ5cpaPlf4[/youtube]
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Post by zennon »

I wouldn't vote for him. His economics are like Thatcher on acid.

Kucinich or Gravel would have my vote. Ideally you'd have Kucinich vs. Paul. You can't go wrong!
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Post by festival of snickers »

GazeboflossUK wrote:He's not "Anti Poor" you fool. How simple.

Also his voice makes you sick?.. My god.

Deep. :roll:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TZ5cpaPlf4[/youtube]
im in usa and you are not!!!

i think i should know what this ron paul,this thumbtack of a man is about

a hidebound libertarian prick and yet, yes he has some good ideas i suppose

ill vote for Edwards to keep scum hilleray and weird obama out and then switch to republican in general election possibly
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Post by festival of snickers »

and i have dial up and not wireless as rich liberations have so i cant see your youtube flick

you post the link and i can click and at least find out how long it is

i hate that, when people post youtubes directly
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Post by festival of snickers »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TZ5cpaP ... p?p=102236

maybe thats it

ron paul followers on that jack blood forum also suck and they're 50% of reason i despise him

alex jones is also full of shii i think to

today he said the royal something created one child policies in china

he always blames the the uk or the queen -what a fufuhead jones is as if people are not responsible for their own actions always blaming so called "elites"

he gets pretty old after listening to him after a while and im up to 8 or 7 segments of" end game" film -what nonsense -trite same old *
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Post by GazeboflossUK »

festival of snickers wrote:
im in usa and you are not!!!

i think i should know what this ron paul,this thumbtack of a man is about

a hidebound libertarian prick
and yet, yes he has some good ideas i suppose
Oh well, since you make such a fantastic argument I'll have to change my mind...
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Post by festival of snickers »

you tell us how ron paul and his libertarians help with distasters like katrina and floods in washinton state last week

thery would do nothiing except doanate a few bucks and stand on the corner broadcasting theyre miniminl deeds
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Post by GazeboflossUK »

festival of snickers wrote:you tell us how ron paul and his libertarians help with distasters like katrina and floods in washinton state last week

thery would do nothiing except doanate a few bucks and stand on the corner broadcasting theyre miniminl deeds
Yeah, whatever you say....ad hominem nonsense - I'm sorry but I'm not interested if you simply are just going spout out such rubbish......

I mean, what are you talking about? You just invented random, none fact based attack. It's childish, and quite odd to be honest.

Nope. Not good. And I'm not interested in "fighting". The end.
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Post by marndin »

Myself and Tim Jones from Canada have put together an advert for the Ron Paul election campaign.

Please help to spread this around, as we feel that the stats are being manipulated by YouTube!

http://www.sooutthere.com/RonPaul/

It's been out for 36 hours now and has achieved 19 honours but the viewing figures are VERY slow to increase!!

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Post by Reflecter »

Nice ad marndin.

I caught this promo for him earlier, which is also nicely done

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsDlO2Lr_cg[/youtube]


Here's the link for Festival aswell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsDlO2Lr_cg
The Peoples United Collective TPUC.ORG

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Post by festival of snickers »

GazeboflossUK wrote:
festival of snickers wrote:you tell us how ron paul and his libertarians help with distasters like katrina and floods in washinton state last week

thery would do nothiing except doanate a few bucks and stand on the corner broadcasting theyre miniminl deeds
Yeah, whatever you say....ad hominem nonsense - I'm sorry but I'm not interested if you simply are just going spout out such rubbish......

I mean, what are you talking about? You just invented random, none fact based attack. It's childish, and quite odd to be honest.

Nope. Not good. And I'm not interested in "fighting". The end.
im not trying to argue just saying why i and others wont vote for him

its not ad hominum its facts i think of how he feels about federal government roll in helping, as far as i know anyway

but if he gets the votes he will win and thats that i guess

i bet he get 4% of the vote but we will see later

if you can refute what i think about him show me and ill gladly vote for him - no argument at all here
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Post by festival of snickers »

the ron paul supporters on the jack blood forum are the most disgusting of americans i think anyway

they are pure mean

i think ill vote for edwards
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Post by uselesseater »

Dogsmilk wrote: .
For me:
state benefits - yes
healthcare - yes
public libraries - yes
dustbins - yes
(a bit for) the arts - yes
schools - yes
fire brigade - yes
police - slash their budget!
etc
I think I would probably go along with all of them in principle even though I have been putting the case against on this thread.

I do, however still think that we need a more freer market at the grassroots end for the average person. There need to be some regulation to preserve the free market by restricting the big boys ewho are anti free-market. This sounds contradictory but it's not really as freedom without boundaries is anarchy. I can be free under the common law but it doesn't mean I can do whatever I like. How you achive this is another question. I don't think we are that far apart really as I explained this to a hardcore Marxist who is an economist and he agreed that we need a free market preserved by resrictions on those who would rather have a captive market.

The thing is, compared to what we have now you have outlined a very limited government. Looking at the figures for the golden age of post war socialism it is evident that the size of the government then was a great deal smaller than it is now as we tend towards totalitarianism and micromanagement.

Btw, thanks for the Myspace add. :D
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Post by blackbear »

Ron Paul: Slings and Arrows, Left and Right
The Trots and the neo-Trots gang up on Ron
by Justin Raimondo

Ron Paul's simultaneous reenactment of the Goldwater and McCarthy (Eugene, not Joe) campaigns has excited a wave of enthusiasm on both sides of the political spectrum – and also a much less enthusiastic reaction from committed ideologues, left and right. While they come at the Paul campaign from different angles, both wind up with surprisingly similar negative analyses of the Paulian phenomenon, more so than you might imagine.

Let's take the lefties first, starting with one Sherry Wolf, whom, we are told, is an editor of the International Socialist Review. Writing in Counterpunch, she starts out her polemic by acknowledging the utter lack of any alternative to the object of her intense irritation:

"'Politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum,' goes the revamped aphorism. Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul's surprising stature among a small but vocal layer of antiwar activists and leftist bloggers appears to bear this out."

By way of understanding the full implications of this statement, perhaps you ought to know that the International Socialist Review, where Ms. Wolf serves on the editorial board, is the quarterly theoretical journal of the International Socialist Organization (ISO), the largest Trotskyist organization in the US, associated with the "Third Camp" views of the late Tony Cliff. Last time around the ISO supported Ralph Nader for President, attracting much criticism from its more orthodox Trotskyist competitors: I remember going to a Nader rally at Mission High School in San Francisco at which Nader attacked the idea of state socialism, much to the embarrassment of the ISO, which provided the organizational muscle for the Nader campaign in Northern California – and their embarrassment must be even greater this time around, when there is no "progressive" candidate on the ballot or likely to appear on any ballot, and Nader is saying good things about … Ron Paul! (at around 4:40 minutes into this Youtubed "Hardball"clip).

Panic! What to do?! Well, Ms. Wolf complains, at length, that Ron isn't a socialist, which seems to me a rather useless pursuit. After all, neither is Nader. If they want a socialist, then why not run their own candidate, like the Socialist Workers Party used to do? Oh, no, they can't be bothered. Instead, they recycle the smears initially hurled at Paul by the neocons: he's a "racist," albeit Wolf's rationale is even loopier than that dreamt up by Ron's opponents on the Right. Paul is a racist, you see, because he "imagines a colorblind world" – as did Martin Luther King, and the entire integrationist tradition of the civil rights movement, oh, but never mind. Aside from citing quotes that were not written by Rep. Paul, and were instead authored by a fired aide, Wolf can't do any better than that. This is a lot like the Clintonians implying that Barack Obama may have been a drug dealer. One can't help wondering, if, perhaps, the ISO is secretly supporting Hillary – or else, why the effort to wall off the left from Paul with this ridiculous smear of "racism"? Who benefits from that? Clearly, the Democrats ….

Wolf decries Paul's opposition to a policy of open borders, and yet Nader took almost the same position as Paul: he opposes illegal immigration, and pledged to reduce it last time around. In an interview with Pat Buchanan published in The American Conservative, when asked about the growth of the US population to 400 million in the near future, Nader said

"We don't have the absorptive capacity for that many people. Over 32 million came in, in the '90s, which is the highest in American history. We have to control our immigration. We have to limit the number of people who come into this country illegally. First of all, we have to say what is the impact on African-Americans and Hispanic Americans in this country in terms of wages of our present stance on immigration? It is a wage-depressing policy."

The hypocrisy of the ISO attack on Paul is breathtaking.

Like the neocons, Wolf attacks Paul for supposedly being one of those dreaded "isolationists." Does she realize that this is a code-word for anti-war and anti-imperialist? Of course she does, yet she cynically avers: "In the isolationist fashion of the nation's Pat Buchanans, he decries intervention in foreign nation's affairs and believes membership in the United Nations undermines U.S. sovereignty." Such a sentence, dripping with contempt for Paul's "no entangling alliances" keep-us-out-of-war stance, might easily have appeared in the Weekly Standard, or National Review. Out of the United Nations?! Oh, heavens-to-Betsy, then how would the Security Council enforce all those delightful sanctions against Iran, and threaten to unleash the armed might of the West if Tehran doesn't bow to the Council's demands? Of course, this is par for the course for the ISO, whose British predecessors, the Cliff-ite Socialist Review faction, refused to condemn the US invasion of Korea, which was sanctioned, you'll recall, by the UN and fought under "international" auspices.

The ISO is so f*cking clueless, that I have a hard time taking Wolf's polemic seriously: it is so obviously the result of pure political calculation, and sheer panic, that one has to wonder if they take it seriously. I have to say, however, that they just don't get it. They don't understand Ron's appeal to the left, aside and apart from his unrelenting opposition to US intervention abroad. They think they can gull the left if they bring up his economic views:

"Complaints against ‘big government' and ‘over-regulation,' though often justified, also issue from the privileged who are frustrated at finding that their quest for still greater privileges at the expense of their community are curtailed by a government which, ideally, represents that community. Pure food and drug laws curtail profits and mandate tests as they protect the general public."

Yet Paul's critique of state capitalism takes on the commanding heights of the system: the Federal Reserve. Inflation, he says, is the means by which the plutocratic elite gets the freshly-created assets first and gets to spend them at full value – while the currency is debauched and the poor and the middle class suffer. His is also a trenchant criticism of the military-industrial complex, which is the main beneficiary of a system founded on manipulation of the money-supply and a foreign policy of perpetual war. This is real economic populism to suit the times we are living in, and the mainstream media is taking note of how Paul's message targeting the central bankers is very effective.

To counterpose "pure food and drug laws" against this kind of radical assault on the very foundations of state-capitalism is just pathetic. But just what one might expect from a fossilized Trotskyist sect with a reputation for rank opportunism.

I was going to go into Jonah Goldberg's analysis of the Paul campaign, but I see this column threatening to get so long as to test the patience of my readers, so I'll save that for a later date. I would simply note that Goldberg, too, hits the "isolationist" meme – a favorite theme of the lapsed Trotskyists of the neoconservative movement, who also conjure the supposedly scary persona of Pat Buchanan in this regard. What's interesting is that not only is the analysis quite similar, but so, too, is the motive: Goldberg and his confreres at National Review want to prevent their conservative flock from defecting to the Paul campaign, just as the ISO is horrified that many on the liberal-left and even left-radicals are rallying to the banner of the Ron Paul Revolution.

Well, isn't that just tough?! Both the orthodox "left" and the neoconservative "right" are intellectually and politically bankrupt: they have nothing to offer but empty slogans, stale dogma, and an outmoded paradigm that has kept us barreling down the road to tyranny and perpetual war, a process that seems to have accelerated ominously since the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Rather than support the only antiwar, anti-authoritarian candidate on the ballot, the sectarians of the ISO would rather stand on the sidelines and stew in their own watery juices.

Well, then, let them. The Paul campaign is so much bigger than the ISO, so much more capable of launching a real revolution in this country, that it isn't even funny. Surely Wolf recognizes this – which accounts, one would guess, for the unusually venomous attack.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12053
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Post by festival of snickers »

wow

ron paul has raked in tons of money from mean libertaratns who saved money over the years, but i doubt people will actually vote for paul even though he can be funny and witty
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Post by Thermate911 »

I don't get it, festival - your snickers are getting nowhere.

Would you not agree that whatever else the man is or represents, his central credo is getting rid of the robber barons strangling your country (not to mention the rest of the world) with their greed and psychopathy.

Get this - Ron Paul has been on record for years in being determined to abolish the Federal Reserve system. I hope I don't come over all condescending but the FedRes is the central trough at which your present masters feed.

Remove their trough, remove the world's agony. QED.

Who else has this as their central tenet - however hard the zionist pundits attempt to fog the issue...?
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Alas, Americans in general are so far down the road in financing their own destruction, Paul, like JFK, has no chance against the CIA/Mafia combo. Reason why, in both cases? Because enough Americans will never get off their asses and start thinking clearly in time to avert the fate of 30's Germany, for they are now led by the very same uber-clans; Scherff, Gehlen et al...

Check it out - if you ever get a 2008 election, your life may depend on how many people you can galvanise into thinking very clearly and very seriously about their future prospects. Emotions, senses (who cares how a man sounds? Surely, what he is saying is of far more import?) are irrelevent - Intent is paramount to your survival.

Hey ho. Snicker on...
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