Understanding 911 - Does The Holocaust Matter?

Non-9/11 Topics that are controversial

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Dogsmilk
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Alexander wrote:I don't look in here very often but it is plain to see that Dogsmilk's hugely long-winded contributions make a reasonable discussion of the alleged Holocaust tale very difficult.

That is his intention, after all.
Is it really? Perhaps I should just shut up? Would you prefer it if I were censored?
Please point out to me the mistake in http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com with regard to the date of the Aktion Reinhard trials. If there is such a mistake then it is surely a miniscule error in a 4.5 hour film?
I was referring to the bit where he states in his smug, patronising voice that only20 mins were spent on it at Nuremburg when everyone knows Nuremburg did not cover Aktion Rheinhard. He does mention the trials elsewhere though - it's a contradiction you should have spotted.
The whole film is one big "mistake" and I gave you a link where you can find that out for yourself. I can start posting highlights covering particularly execrable sections if you like.
And David Olere? What do you find so convincing about his drawings? Is that a "human skin" lampshade he is decorating with a picture of a ship in one of them?
He made highly detailed and accurate drawings of the crematoria. I have no idea if he drew a human skin lampshade and I fail to see how it would discredit his entire testimony if he did.
anthony lawson wrote:Frankly, I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that this site has been taken over, or at least been deeply infiltrated by elements of the Anti Defamation League, because whenever people like myself, Rodin, Alulim, simplesimon and others point out that some of the people who are reviled by the ADL, to the extent that they are hounded down and fined or put in prison for their research and the beliefs that this research has lead to, they are called liars, cheats, Nazis, Fascists and racists.
It is particularly ironic that this kind of paranoid drivel should be coming from Anthony as it is exactly the sort of thing Killtown's Komedy Kult resorted to when people didn't rush to embrace their fantasies. Except then, this site had been "taken over" by "the perps". Yesterday you were moaning about me swearing, today it's all the fault of the ADL while conspicuously failing to answer two totally straightforward questions. It beggars belief that this is really the same person who came out with the excellent september clues - busted!.
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White noise

Post by Anthony Lawson »

White noise
Dogsmilk wrote:It is particularly ironic that this kind of paranoid drivel should be coming from Anthony as it is exactly the sort of thing Killtown's Komedy Kult resorted to when people didn't rush to embrace their fantasies. Except then, this site had been "taken over" by "the perps".
A typical change of issue from our foul-mouthed pundit, who cuts off the quote he is using to kick off his criticism before it gets to the nub of the issue.
Anthony Lawson wrote: ... people who are reviled by the ADL, to the extent that they are hounded down and fined or put in prison for their research and the beliefs that this research has lead to, they are called liars, cheats, Nazis, Fascists and racists.

This is the part you deliberately missed out:
Compare that treatment with the treatment of those from “the other side” who have also lied and cheated on what should be irrefutable evidence of the existence of the industrial-sized extermination gas chambers which would have been necessary to perpetrate the systematic murders of millions of people. If these did not exist, during the period of the holocaust—and there is ample evidence and testimony to make their existence at least questionable—then the story of the holocaust, as it has been propagated and built on, since the end of World War Two, must have been, at the very least, partially fabricated.
If you ever get around to addressing this issue, then perhaps people will begin to take you seriously, until then your interminable posts will be taken for what they are: bursts of obscure, pseudo-intellectual white noise interspersed with offensive language.
Dogsmilk wrote: It beggars belief that this is really the same person who came out with the excellent september clues - busted!.
Yes, it would have that effect on a narrow-minded bigot. But remember, I haven’t changed my ‘rules of evidence’ to suit the two issues, it is just that you do not believe that any hard evidence of extermination gas chambers is required, which is why you need to ridicule those who think that this lack of evidence does matter.
The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
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Re: White noise

Post by Dogsmilk »

Anthony Lawson wrote:White noise
Dogsmilk wrote:It is particularly ironic that this kind of paranoid drivel should be coming from Anthony as it is exactly the sort of thing Killtown's Komedy Kult resorted to when people didn't rush to embrace their fantasies. Except then, this site had been "taken over" by "the perps".
A typical change of issue from our foul-mouthed pundit, who cuts off the quote he is using to kick off his criticism before it gets to the nub of the issue.
Anthony Lawson wrote: ... people who are reviled by the ADL, to the extent that they are hounded down and fined or put in prison for their research and the beliefs that this research has lead to, they are called liars, cheats, Nazis, Fascists and racists.

This is the part you deliberately missed out:
Compare that treatment with the treatment of those from “the other side” who have also lied and cheated on what should be irrefutable evidence of the existence of the industrial-sized extermination gas chambers which would have been necessary to perpetrate the systematic murders of millions of people. If these did not exist, during the period of the holocaust—and there is ample evidence and testimony to make their existence at least questionable—then the story of the holocaust, as it has been propagated and built on, since the end of World War Two, must have been, at the very least, partially fabricated.
If you ever get around to addressing this issue, then perhaps people will begin to take you seriously, until then your interminable posts will be taken for what they are: bursts of obscure, pseudo-intellectual white noise interspersed with offensive language.
Dogsmilk wrote: It beggars belief that this is really the same person who came out with the excellent september clues - busted!.
Yes, it would have that effect on a narrow-minded bigot. But remember, I haven’t changed my ‘rules of evidence’ to suit the two issues, it is just that you do not believe that any hard evidence of extermination gas chambers is required, which is why you need to ridicule those who think that this lack of evidence does matter.
I didn't get into the second part of the quote because these are exactly the issues we have been arguing about ad infinitum. I have stated repeatedly on this forum that I do not believe in criminalising the Holocaust deniers but nevertheless find their 'research' sorely lacking and argument there is no 'hard evidence' for gas chambers predicated on automatically dismissing any evidence presented. The blunt fact is, when you look at the sum totality of evidence it points towards there being gas chambers. You can take all individual pieces, some mentioned on this thread already - e.g.
The "gassing cellar" document
The "undressing room" (though this, apparently, is in a "typical morgue sense"(!))
The "shower heads and gas tight door" document
The simply enormous cremation capacity of Auschwitz, far outstripping 'normal' mortality, despite the fact it's also known they had to resort to outside burning pits.
The mysterious disappearance of Jews known to be sent there who have never subsequently been found.
HCN traces in the walls.
The other interesting features of 'morgues;, such as introducing provision to heat them.
Convergent independent survivor testimony.
Confessions of perpetrators with a mysterious lack of retraction even decades later.
Etc etc etc
You can attack each piece indpendently and come up with an 'explanation', but you are then left with a huge mess of increasingly convoluted and speculative 'debunkings'. When put together, the sum totality of what's available points clearly in one direction. They were morgues. They were air raid shelters. They were delousing chambers (despite the more than adequate central sauna) - they were all three - just pick what works for the individual point at the time. I've said it before - you must ignore the unsurprising fact the Nazis made efforts to cover up exactly what they were up to and remain stoically unsatisfied with any evidence.
The laugh of it is, the quality of discussion on this forum (from me included) is not exactly expert or massively informed, yet you are so totally convinced you are right. As I've said before, if you lot are so convinced of the solid nature of your position, take it to RODOH and see how far you get. Or is taking your Holocaust debate to a Holocaust debate forum with some seriously knowledgeable people just a bit too obvious?

It is interesting you accuse me of creating "white noise" when for the last couple of days you have had a big sulky strop about the thread title being changed, complained about me swearing, claimed the site is some kind of ADL front and are now calling me a "narrow minded bigot" for daring to agree with you on another matter (I would of course disagree that you apply the same standards to both). All the time repeatedly ignoring two simple questions - you might want to think about that when you're accusing me of failing to get to the "nub of the issue".
You also claimed you would leave if the thread title issue were not resolved to your personal satisfaction, but instead keep returning with increasingly pointless "white noise". Maybe I should just start baselessly asserting you're deliberately returning to derail discussion for your Nazi masters or something?

The point is, plenty of NPTers have accused this site of being "controlled", including specifically you. I assume when you read this stuff you consider it to be ridiculous, yet you're now doing exactly the same thing yourself. You are behaving like Killtown.
Last edited by Dogsmilk on Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gruts »

Dogsmilk wrote:
brian wrote:chek, you sure you want this to stand -

"It's an indisputable fact that HR is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."

I realise it was an expression of your views on revisionists but it leaves you looking more a dogmatic fascist than you may have intended.

If we put it in the context of 911 you may get the picture better -

"It's an indisputable fact that 911 revisionism is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."
Let's take the IHR which you appear to like.

We've already seen on this thread McCalden's involvement.
Then there's Willis Carto - we all know about him, don't we?
Mark Weber - what do we know about the politics of the former news editor of the National Vanguard?

What do they do?
They say they -
The Institute for Historical Review is an educational, public interest research and publishing center dedicated to promoting greater public awareness of the past, and especially socially-politically relevant aspects of twentieth-century history. It strives especially to increase understanding of the causes, nature and consequences of war and conflict.

Founded in 1978, the IHR is non-partisan, non-ideological, and non-sectarian. It is recognized by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit, tax-exempt enterprise.
Sounds dandy. Yet have a peek at the archive for their 'journal' -
What do you see?
Holocaust denial wins hand down.
And coming a clear second are articles making Hitler and his pals out to be a bunch of smashing blokes.
There's some stuff about Israel and a few other bits - like an article on the Boer war that manages to go on about...the Jews!
So is this the sum totality of 20th century history that could do with a spot of re-examining then? Why do they always revise in one predictable direction?

Lets look at what they sell - we see lots of books rather favourable to the Third Reich...but we don't like the Jews so much do we?

Do you detect a slight bias towards the Nazis in an organisation set up by Nazis...or is it just me?
lol - the "we're respectable historians with no nazi tendencies whatsoever" veneer is pretty thin isn't it....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVxM5IBLeU4[/youtube]
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Post by Dogsmilk »

gruts wrote:
Dogsmilk wrote:
brian wrote:chek, you sure you want this to stand -

"It's an indisputable fact that HR is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."

I realise it was an expression of your views on revisionists but it leaves you looking more a dogmatic fascist than you may have intended.

If we put it in the context of 911 you may get the picture better -

"It's an indisputable fact that 911 revisionism is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."
Let's take the IHR which you appear to like.

We've already seen on this thread McCalden's involvement.
Then there's Willis Carto - we all know about him, don't we?
Mark Weber - what do we know about the politics of the former news editor of the National Vanguard?

What do they do?
They say they -
The Institute for Historical Review is an educational, public interest research and publishing center dedicated to promoting greater public awareness of the past, and especially socially-politically relevant aspects of twentieth-century history. It strives especially to increase understanding of the causes, nature and consequences of war and conflict.

Founded in 1978, the IHR is non-partisan, non-ideological, and non-sectarian. It is recognized by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit, tax-exempt enterprise.
Sounds dandy. Yet have a peek at the archive for their 'journal' -
What do you see?
Holocaust denial wins hand down.
And coming a clear second are articles making Hitler and his pals out to be a bunch of smashing blokes.
There's some stuff about Israel and a few other bits - like an article on the Boer war that manages to go on about...the Jews!
So is this the sum totality of 20th century history that could do with a spot of re-examining then? Why do they always revise in one predictable direction?

Lets look at what they sell - we see lots of books rather favourable to the Third Reich...but we don't like the Jews so much do we?

Do you detect a slight bias towards the Nazis in an organisation set up by Nazis...or is it just me?
lol - the "we're respectable historians with no nazi tendencies whatsoever" veneer is pretty thin isn't it....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=sVxM5IBLeU4[/youtube]
ROFLCOPTER!
I haven't seen that for years!

I think this has a certain aptness.
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Post by chek »

brian wrote:chek, you sure you want this to stand -

"It's an indisputable fact that HR is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."

I realise it was an expression of your views on revisionists but it leaves you looking more a dogmatic fascist than you may have intended.
I see, so in topsy turvy land I'm the fascist here. That figures.

Let me ask you then to point me to some sites championing HR/HD that have no links whatsoever to shady right wing agenda.
I've had a quick look, but maybe I've just not been motivated enough.
brian wrote:If we put it in the context of 911 you may get the picture better -

"It's an indisputable fact that 911 revisionism is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."
That doesn't really either scan or compute - but thanks for putting the endgame down in black and white.
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Post by Alulim »

Dogsmilk wrote:
Alexander wrote:I don't look in here very often but it is plain to see that Dogsmilk's hugely long-winded contributions make a reasonable discussion of the alleged Holocaust tale very difficult.

That is his intention, after all.
Is it really? Perhaps I should just shut up? Would you prefer it if I were censored?
Such is typically the purview of your faction. Revisionists are typically not wont to censor.

http://911blogger.com/node/11376#comment-161240 (be sure to expand the comments)
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Alulim wrote:
Such is typically the purview of your faction. Revisionists are typically not wont to censor.
You mean like on CODOH?
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Post by Alulim »

Dogsmilk wrote:
Alulim wrote:
Such is typically the purview of your faction. Revisionists are typically not wont to censor.
You mean like on CODOH?
http://vehme.blogspot.com/2007/11/ideol ... ernet.html

I have no idea what part of the thread on Dawkins's site is still there, but you can see what happened to me when I asked for any evidence that the CODOH moderators unfairly exclude posts from anybody. I will tell you that merely mentioning CODOH on 911blogger.com got me kicked off. That's pretty much what happened on http://richarddawkins.net/forum . The irony of their actions exhibited to the rational mind is extraordinary.

If you can demonstrate an unfair bias on the part of the CODOH moderators, I will take up your cause there. Their ground rules are pretty clear, and they don't tolerate intentionally disruptive conduct.
Last edited by Alulim on Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by brian »

chek wrote:
brian wrote:chek, you sure you want this to stand -

"It's an indisputable fact that HR is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."

I realise it was an expression of your views on revisionists but it leaves you looking more a dogmatic fascist than you may have intended.
I see, so in topsy turvy land I'm the fascist here. That figures.

Let me ask you then to point me to some sites championing HR/HD that have no links whatsoever to shady right wing agenda.
I've had a quick look, but maybe I've just not been motivated enough.
brian wrote:If we put it in the context of 911 you may get the picture better -

"It's an indisputable fact that 911 revisionism is irrevocably entwined with if not outright born of incipient fascism, and that's that."
That doesn't really either scan or compute - but thanks for putting the endgame down in black and white.
chek, "the endgame" - are you aware that in recent congressional hearings a Simon Wiesenthal representative actually lumped the Archtiects & Engineers for Truth website together with terrorist websites in general? Islamofascism is the call.

Not my endgame just my way of showing how propaganda is used.

You claim of "indisputable fact that HR is irrevocably entwined with..fascism" is plain silly and does you no favours.

Like Sept 11 the holocaust story is riddled with lies contradictions and impossibilities. Like Sept 11 it has had an idisputable wide-ranging effect on human affairs since.

Not only is there no need to be a fascist to take note of the lies contradictions and impossibilities, I would argue you are remiss not to.

The very fact that there are people in prison for bringing the lies contradictions and impossibilities to light tells me loudly and clearly who the fascists are.
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Post by Alexander »

People can see some of David Olere's drawings here and decide for themselves whether he is a reliable eyewitness to the Holocaust as Dogsmilk would have us believe....

http://forum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=2661
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Post by chek »

brian wrote: chek, "the endgame" - are you aware that in recent congressional hearings a Simon Wiesenthal representative actually lumped the Archtiects & Engineers for Truth website together with terrorist websites in general? Islamofascism is the call.
Not my endgame just my way of showing how propaganda is used.
Indeed that did happen, though I'm not sure if being lumped in with Killtown was more damaging. It demonstrates that the criminal network is now getting worried, and using their proxies to throw mud. Which judging by Richard Gage's reaction is no guarantee at all that it will stick.
brian wrote: You claim of "indisputable fact that HR is irrevocably entwined with..fascism" is plain silly and does you no favours.

Like Sept 11 the holocaust story is riddled with lies contradictions and impossibilities. Like Sept 11 it has had an idisputable wide-ranging effect on human affairs since.

Not only is there no need to be a fascist to take note of the lies contradictions and impossibilities, I would argue you are remiss not to.

The very fact that there are people in prison for bringing the lies contradictions and impossibilities to light tells me loudly and clearly who the fascists are.
A bit of inconsequential bluster regarding 'contradictions and impossibilities' which seems to me in all probablilty a position as rigorously researched as when the very same terms are used by the no planes crew.
All mainstream history is known to be a generalised mish mash of half truths glossed up and made favourable to the winning side. And so the general public has its myths and scholars research what events occurred and how they were linked, which is known to be another imperfect process.
So when I said;
chek wrote:Let me ask you then to point me to some sites championing HR/HD that have no links whatsoever to shady right wing agenda.
... the answer is that you can't find any either?

It would lead me to conclude the reason being that HR/HD sites are there for one purpose, and one purpose only.
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Post by brian »

chek, lets try this -

As I do with those that support the official story of Sept 11 I will ask you to list the best evidence that convinces you that there was a planned systematic industrial scale genocide of Jews.

You are the one claiming it is only fascists that refute the claims so I assume you do so from what you believe to be a secure basis.

I also assume you will have this evidence to hand.
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Post by chek »

brian wrote:chek, lets try this -

As I do with those that support the official story of Sept 11 I will ask you to list the best evidence that convinces you that there was a planned systematic industrial scale genocide of Jews.

You are the one claiming it is only fascists that refute the claims so I assume you do so from what you believe to be a secure basis.

I also assume you will have this evidence to hand.
No, let's try this which is rather more germaine:
why do you insist on bringing HR/HD topics - which are known to be inextricably linked to far right groups - to a 911 forum?
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Post by Alexander »

I'm certainly not on the far right. Always thought of myself as on the left in fact. I voted for the SNP so that makes me a Nationalist and a Socialist. LOL. Damned from my own mouth. Drat!

Revisionism is not a political ideology. Revisionists don't waste their time arguing if Hitler was right or wrong. They simply want to find out what really happened.

The pioneer of Holocaust Revisionism was Paul Rassinier, a Frenchman who was imprisoned in two German concentration camps(Buchenwald and Dora). Rassinier was an anti-Nazi Resistance fighter. He was arrested in 1943 and tortured before being sent to Buchenwald concentration camp. After the war Rassinier read many blatantly untrue stories about Buchenwald. Former inmates claimed there had been a homicidal gas chamber in that camp, which Rassinier knew to be a lie as he had been in Buchenwald himself. In his largely autobiographical book - Le Mesonge D'Ulysse(1950) - Rassinier expressed the view that there had undoubtedly been gas chambers in some of the camps, but that the number of the victims had been grossly exaggerated. However in his 1964 book - Le Drame des Juifs Europeens - he branded the gas chamber extermination story "the most macabre lie of all times". He died in 1967.

David Cole and JG Burg were Jewish Revisionists.

Some Revisionists have gone out of their way to condemn National Socialism but it doesn't really help them as the media and the upholders of the accepted Holocaust story will always label them "neo-nazis".

Harry Elmer Barnes was on the left of the political spectrum too i believe. You can read a couple of his books - Pearl Harbour After a Quarter Century and Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace - at this link....
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/engl.html
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Post by gruts »

are you seriously saying that you don't think holocaust denial is in any way linked to a wider agenda of whitewashing the appalling crimes of hitler and nazi germany?
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Alexander wrote:People can see some of David Olere's drawings here and decide for themselves whether he is a reliable eyewitness to the Holocaust as Dogsmilk would have us believe....

http://forum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=2661
"some" being the operative word.
What's particularly interesting about his work is, following his liberation from Ebensee (don't forget most Auschwitz inmates were marched out before the Soviets arrived) and subsequent return to Paris, he drew many drawings, including a fascinating cross section of crematorium III (sorry can't find on the net - see Van Pelt's the case for Auschwitz) which is astonishingly accurate. He did these drawings before any material on the structures was published.

So here we have a picture

Image

Depicting crematorium III

Image

People can indeed decide for themselves if he was ever there.

Of course, he cropped up at the Irving trial - this is from Rampton's closing speech
In 1945, a former inmate of Auschwitz, David Olere, an
7artist, drew the ground plan of Leichenkeller I in
8crematorium III. This drawing shows a zigzag alignment of
9the gassing columns in Leichenkeller I. These are the
10columns which would have ended in the apertures through
11which the gas pellets were inserted. It happens that that
12zigzag alignment is precisely matched by an aerial
13photograph taken by the Allies in 1944, which was not
14released to the world until 1979. There can, therefore,
15be no possibility of any cross-contamination
16between Olere's drawing and the aerial photograph. No
17doubt recognizing this, Mr Irving sought to suggest at
18this trial that the aerial photograph had been faked by
19the CIA. Professor van Pelt, however, explained to the
20court that he had had the photograph tested by Dr Nevin
21Bryant at NASA and that the result of those tests showed
22conclusively that the photograph was authentic.
23 In the light of Mr Irving's concession that
24Leichenkeller I was indeed a gas chamber and of the fact
25that it is clear that it was never intended for the
26gassing of corpses or other inanimate objects, or for use
In the light of Mr Irving's concession that
1as an air-raid shelter, the stark conclusion can only be
2this: It must have been used for gassing people, live
3people.
http://www.hdot.org/trial/transcripts/day32/pages21-25

It goes without saying that Olere is also corroborated by other survivors like Henryk Tauber.


My favourite line on that CODOH thread is -
It should be obvious that Olere was given a tour of Auschwitz soon after the war, given plans of the crematoriums, given a list of details as they were claimed by the likes of Tauber and Nyiszli and kept abreast of all that was emerging as the Holocaust story was being developed. Olere was in effect the resident artist of the Bolshevik/Holocaust propaganda machine.
Well it goes without saying doesn't it!? And no-one should be expected to in any way prove such obvious facts. Did Killtown learn his style at CODOH?
Revisionists don't waste their time arguing if Hitler was right or wrong.
Would you like me to post some choice morsels from the IHR archive?
Zundel happily worked on the snappily titled the Hitler we loved and why as he freely admits on his website -
Ernst Zundel was once involved in the publication of a book called The Hitler We Loved and Why, but Ernst Zundel was not the only German who loved Hitler and is probably not the only German who still loves Hitler. Millions of Germans loved Hitler, who for twelve years impacted on them as no German has or probably ever will, and, though they never say so, must, deep down still cherish his memory.
http://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persec ... eisen.html
Do tell me how much you want me to dig up on deniers eulogising Hitler.
LOL, one of my favourites is the truly bloody awful Judea declares war on Germany from Fredrick "nonsense even by denier standards" Toben of the Adelaide "we link to Jewwatch" Institute.. There's some slightly subtle stuff going on in that about how wonderful and efficient German engineering was back then.

The pioneer of Holocaust Revisionism was Paul Rassinier, a Frenchman who was imprisoned in two German concentration camps(Buchenwald and Dora). Rassinier was an anti-Nazi Resistance fighter. He was arrested in 1943 and tortured before being sent to Buchenwald concentration camp. After the war Rassinier read many blatantly untrue stories about Buchenwald. Former inmates claimed there had been a homicidal gas chamber in that camp, which Rassinier knew to be a lie as he had been in Buchenwald himself. In his largely autobiographical book - Le Mesonge D'Ulysse(1950) - Rassinier expressed the view that there had undoubtedly been gas chambers in some of the camps, but that the number of the victims had been grossly exaggerated. However in his 1964 book - Le Drame des Juifs Europeens - he branded the gas chamber extermination story "the most macabre lie of all times". He died in 1967.
Heh - Apart from the fact we know quite a bit about his experience and why he felt the way he did and that Rassinier moved more and more into blatant anti-semitism...
He is a concentration camp survivor and they are all liars. You have no hard evidence that one jot of what Rassinier said is true and are just relying on manifestly false eyewitness testimony. Where is your hard evidence for any of his claims?
David Cole and JG Burg were Jewish Revisionists.
And? Why is deniers feel the need to highlight it if anyone Jewish (though Cole at least is in no way religious) is sympathetic? It's like they like to have a 'token Jew' or two they can cite. Cole's comments were quite telling:
Q: Have you encountered any anti-semitism from the revisionists that
you have met around the world?

COLE: Have I encountered anti-Semitism from revisionists? That’s a
tricky one, because most of them are always on their best behavior when
I’m around. The ones, and there are many, who believe in wacky Jewish
conspiracy theories or the supremacy of the “white race” rarely let me in
on the joke because they know that I won’t share those views. I always
volunteer my views on such subjects as religion, race-mixing, conspiracy
theories, etc., just so there should be no confusion about where I stand
on those things. Plus my best friend, who is black, is REALLY imposing -
this is a BIG guy who, by his sheer size, doesn’t exactly encourage candor
>from white supremacists who might be in the same room. Anytime he’s
around, my revisionist pals are either silent or trying to say something
complimentary about black people (like “I really love that Marcus Garvey”
or “you people are such great Christians”). One time I was having dinner
with Mark Weber and his girlfriend. As we were coming out of the
restaurant, a trendy, expensive West L.A. eatery, Weber was talking
animatedly about some very “conservative” subjects. And who should come
walking up behind us, listening in, but the rapper Ice T, who, as many of
you would know, is as far left as Mark is far right. I managed to change
the subject before the situation could become dangerous. Still and all,
nowadays I wonder if I did the right thing. It’s not that I wish Mark any
harm, it’s just that, well, the image of a revisionist historian getting
clobbered by a famous rapper...well, as Beavis and/or Butt-head might say,
“that would be cool.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/c/ ... rview.0695
I ran into McCalden and recognized him as the
discredited co-founder to the IHR, after two years of operation they
split between Willis Carto and David McCalden, and they remained bitter
enemies. I befriended McCalden and thought I'd get to know him, he;ll take
me back to his secret Nazi lair, and I'll see for my own eyes the
swastikas, and then I'll know these guys are charlatans. McCalden was a
racialist but was also sharp, knew that the future or Revisionism would
not lay in the hands of someone like Willis Carto who tends to enjoy
catering to a racist market. His market is far right borderline racialist.
McCalden saw a future for revisionism breaking out of its far right roots,
seprating out those who were revisionists because they were German
nationalists or wanted to knock the Jews, he wanted to move it more into
the historical mainstream. He didn't know I was a Jew, but I always felt I
came off talking and looking like a Jew anyway, so I told him I was and he
was reasonable. He gave me some literature.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/c/ ... lem-report

Was Harry Elmer Barnes actually a Holocaust denier?
At any rate, it's a not a matter of if all deniers are Nazis, it's a matter that there is a strong linkage. Answer me this -

Is it or is it not the case that the Holocaust is the greatest barrier to any rehabilitation of Nazism/fascism?
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Post by blackbear »

Present day evil:

Shot by a rubber bullet.

Shanbo Heinemann, a pro-Palestinian activist from San Francisco, California, sits on the ground after being shot in the head with a rubber bullet fired by Israeli troops during a violent protest against Israel's security fence in the West Bank village of Bilin, February 22, 2008.

REUTERS/Yannis Behrakis

[Notice the word "violent" describing the protest. A lie, of course. The Bilin weekly protest against the Apartheid Wall has been going on for years. The only violence which occurs is always from the Israeli side.* He is identified as "pro-Palestinian" when in fact he is a "peace activist", an international monitor, not a protestor.]


International Solidarity Movement » Bil'in Village
http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2008/ ... ullet.html

The modern day Nazis + Fascists concern me.
Who gained from the evil of WW2.?

Is the planned + systemic annihilation of millions of muslims too much to acknowledge. Why are so many people in denile about this.
Is it a racial problem.? The blog world who are giving a Zeig Heil for more blood under the cloak of human rights, etc .....are the modern day Nazis + Fascists.1

How many were murdered at Jenin.........?
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Post by chek »

blackbear wrote:Present day evil:

Shot by a rubber bullet.

Shanbo Heinemann, a pro-Palestinian activist from San Francisco, California, sits on the ground after being shot in the head with a rubber bullet fired by Israeli troops during a violent protest against Israel's security fence in the West Bank village of Bilin, February 22, 2008.

REUTERS/Yannis Behrakis

[Notice the word "violent" describing the protest. A lie, of course. The Bilin weekly protest against the Apartheid Wall has been going on for years. The only violence which occurs is always from the Israeli side.* He is identified as "pro-Palestinian" when in fact he is a "peace activist", an international monitor, not a protestor.]


International Solidarity Movement » Bil'in Village
http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2008/ ... ullet.html

The modern day Nazis + Fascists concern me.
Who gained from the evil of WW2.?

Is the planned + systemic annihilation of millions of muslims too much to acknowledge. Why are so many people in denile about this.
Is it a racial problem.? The blog world who are giving a Zeig Heil for more blood under the cloak of human rights, etc .....are the modern day Nazis + Fascists.1

How many were murdered at Jenin.........?
I don't think for one moment that one victim's personal anguish in one moment of their circumstances overrides another's in different circumstances. Just as one holocaust at one point in times passed does not excuse another in the present.

However I'm reminded of Sinead O'Connor's observation that countries are also capable of behaving in the manner of abused children, and doom themselves to repeating what was visited upon them in earlier times.

It would seem to be a matter of breaking the cycle in order to move past the point of causing pain, usually to the innocent, done to assuage whatever need is being addressed .

We can blame it on the Zionists (or whoever fulfills that role, depending on the era we occupy) quite easily of course. But perhaps in our haste to do so, we overlook something innate in human nature that is best dealt with rather than denied and deflected onto others.
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Post by Dallas »

chek wrote:
blackbear wrote:Present day evil:

Shot by a rubber bullet.

Shanbo Heinemann, a pro-Palestinian activist from San Francisco, California, sits on the ground after being shot in the head with a rubber bullet fired by Israeli troops during a violent protest against Israel's security fence in the West Bank village of Bilin, February 22, 2008.

REUTERS/Yannis Behrakis

[Notice the word "violent" describing the protest. A lie, of course. The Bilin weekly protest against the Apartheid Wall has been going on for years. The only violence which occurs is always from the Israeli side.* He is identified as "pro-Palestinian" when in fact he is a "peace activist", an international monitor, not a protestor.]


International Solidarity Movement » Bil'in Village
http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2008/ ... ullet.html

The modern day Nazis + Fascists concern me.
Who gained from the evil of WW2.?

Is the planned + systemic annihilation of millions of muslims too much to acknowledge. Why are so many people in denile about this.
Is it a racial problem.? The blog world who are giving a Zeig Heil for more blood under the cloak of human rights, etc .....are the modern day Nazis + Fascists.1

How many were murdered at Jenin.........?
I don't think for one moment that one victim's personal anguish in one moment of their circumstances overrides another's in different circumstances. Just as one holocaust at one point in times passed does not excuse another in the present.

However I'm reminded of Sinead O'Connor's observation that countries are also capable of behaving in the manner of abused children, and doom themselves to repeating what was visited upon them in earlier times.

It would seem to be a matter of breaking the cycle in order to move past the point of causing pain, usually to the innocent, done to assuage whatever need is being addressed .

We can blame it on the Zionists (or whoever fulfills that role, depending on the era we occupy) quite easily of course. But perhaps in our haste to do so, we overlook something innate in human nature that is best dealt with rather than denied and deflected onto others.
Funny you should bring up Ms. O'Connor. One of the better examples that I know of illustrating that being right is often the sure path to destruction.
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Post by Alulim »

chek wrote:
brian wrote:chek, lets try this -

As I do with those that support the official story of Sept 11 I will ask you to list the best evidence that convinces you that there was a planned systematic industrial scale genocide of Jews.

You are the one claiming it is only fascists that refute the claims so I assume you do so from what you believe to be a secure basis.

I also assume you will have this evidence to hand.
No, let's try this which is rather more germaine:
why do you insist on bringing HR/HD topics - which are known to be inextricably linked to far right groups - to a 911 forum?
We are not "inextricably linked to far right groups". I invariably fall into the moderate "Left" when I respond to political alignment surveys. The perpetrators of 9/11 are the ones with the ties to fascism:

http://vehme.blogspot.com/2007/12/911-t ... se-to.html

Why do you dodge a relevant and important request by issuing baseless and defamatory accusations? But, rather than answering this why don't you respond meaningfully to the original request.
Last edited by Alulim on Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Alulim »

chek wrote: I don't think for one moment that one victim's personal anguish in one moment of their circumstances overrides another's in different circumstances. Just as one holocaust at one point in times passed does not excuse another in the present.

However I'm reminded of Sinead O'Connor's observation that countries are also capable of behaving in the manner of abused children, and doom themselves to repeating what was visited upon them in earlier times.

It would seem to be a matter of breaking the cycle in order to move past the point of causing pain, usually to the innocent, done to assuage whatever need is being addressed .

We can blame it on the Zionists (or whoever fulfills that role, depending on the era we occupy) quite easily of course. But perhaps in our haste to do so, we overlook something innate in human nature that is best dealt with rather than denied and deflected onto others.
You have said nothing of substance here. There really is a Zionist Movement, and it has been skulking in the shadows behind many major world events. Why do you oppose shining light on this?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
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Post by chek »

Alulim wrote:
They are not "inextricably linked to far right groups". I invariably fall into the moderate "Left" when I respond to political alignment surveys. The perpetrators of 9/11 are the ones with the ties to fascism:

http://vehme.blogspot.com/2007/12/911-t ... se-to.html

Why do you dodge a relevant and important request by issuing baseless and defamatory accusations? But, rather than answering this why don't you respond meaningfully to the original request.
I'll repeat: despite your protestations, can you show any instances where likages to far right groups are not the case?
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Post by Alulim »

chek wrote:
Alulim wrote:
They are not "inextricably linked to far right groups". I invariably fall into the moderate "Left" when I respond to political alignment surveys. The perpetrators of 9/11 are the ones with the ties to fascism:

http://vehme.blogspot.com/2007/12/911-t ... se-to.html

Why do you dodge a relevant and important request by issuing baseless and defamatory accusations? But, rather than answering this why don't you respond meaningfully to the original request.
I'll repeat: despite your protestations, can you show any instances where likages to far right groups are not the case?
I already have. Me. Why do you persist in your mendacity?
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
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Post by chek »

Alulim wrote:
chek wrote: I'll repeat: despite your protestations, can you show any instances where linkages to far right groups are not the case?
I already have. Me. Why do you persist in your mendacity?
Well apart from your good self, who no doubt stands as a beacon of rectitude, can you show examples of any holocaust revisionist/denial sites you may be more familiar than me with, that aren't in bed with Nazi's? Closet or otherwise.
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The Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth

Post by Anthony Lawson »

The Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth

If getting at the truth about the holocaust is not important, then neither is getting at the truth about 9/11.

If people are being put in jail for questioning the former, then they may be put in jail for questioning the latter.

Chek, yours and Ian Neal’s assertions that fascist and others on the right use denial of the holocaust for their political ends, while they may be true, are, to say the least: unhelpful. You may not mean it, but the implication is that anyone who seeks the truth may be regarded as a fascist or of the far right, and therefore, by association, assisting these kinds of extremists. This is an absurd position to take, because:

The truth is not negotiable.

Although the way the truth is used may be.

To seek the truth is not just our right, it is our duty, if for no other reason than for those who will come after us: our children and our children’s children. And we must pass that sense of duty on to them, as well.

Putting people in jail for attempting to seek the truth confirms that there almost certainly is a conspiracy to hide something; perhaps not even what some of us imagine they want to hide, but something far bigger.

Look at the heading on this website: Why should we prepared to bow down to the demands of people who do not want the truth made public?
The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
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Post by Alulim »

Dogsmilk wrote:
Alexander wrote:People can see some of David Olere's drawings here and decide for themselves whether he is a reliable eyewitness to the Holocaust as Dogsmilk would have us believe....

http://forum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=2661
"some" being the operative word.
What's particularly interesting about his work is, following his liberation from Ebensee (don't forget most Auschwitz inmates were marched out before the Soviets arrived) and subsequent return to Paris, he drew many drawings, including a fascinating cross section of crematorium III (sorry can't find on the net - see Van Pelt's the case for Auschwitz) which is astonishingly accurate. He did these drawings before any material on the structures was published.

So here we have a picture

Image

Depicting crematorium III

Image

People can indeed decide for themselves if he was ever there.
I believe Olere probably did see the cremetoria, and may have even worked in the building. But this picture puts the lie to his credibility as a witness to the alleged homicidal gas chambers.

Image

Supposedly they were running batches of Jews through there every half hour or so. The bodies would have been saturated with HCN, and there would probably have been a fair amount of prussic acid still infused in the Zyklon-B pellets allegedly dumped on the alleged victims.

Image
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Post by Alulim »

chek wrote:
Alulim wrote:
chek wrote: I'll repeat: despite your protestations, can you show any instances where linkages to far right groups are not the case?
I already have. Me. Why do you persist in your mendacity?
Well apart from your good self, who no doubt stands as a beacon of rectitude, can you show examples of any holocaust revisionist/denial sites you may be more familiar than me with, that aren't in bed with Nazi's? Closet or otherwise.
It wouldn't matter what I posted. You would claim that they are associated with Nazis because they are Holocaust(TM) deniers, and all Holocaust(TM) deniers associate with Nazis. Anybody who has ever associated with a Nazi is, in fact a Nazi. Somewhere, at sometime a Holocaust(TM) denier associated with a Nazi. Therefore, anybody who associates with Holocaust(TM) deniers is a Nazi. And since you are associating with me, and I pretty much deny The Holocaust(TM), you must be a Nazi.

Love how that works, eh?
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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Alulim wrote:
Dogsmilk wrote:
Alexander wrote:People can see some of David Olere's drawings here and decide for themselves whether he is a reliable eyewitness to the Holocaust as Dogsmilk would have us believe....

http://forum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=2661
"some" being the operative word.
What's particularly interesting about his work is, following his liberation from Ebensee (don't forget most Auschwitz inmates were marched out before the Soviets arrived) and subsequent return to Paris, he drew many drawings, including a fascinating cross section of crematorium III (sorry can't find on the net - see Van Pelt's the case for Auschwitz) which is astonishingly accurate. He did these drawings before any material on the structures was published.

So here we have a picture

Image

Depicting crematorium III

Image

People can indeed decide for themselves if he was ever there.
I believe Olere probably did see the cremetoria, and may have even worked in the building. But this picture puts the lie to his credibility as a witness to the alleged homicidal gas chambers.

Image

Supposedly they were running batches of Jews through there every half hour or so. The bodies would have been saturated with HCN, and there would probably have been a fair amount of prussic acid still infused in the Zyklon-B pellets allegedly dumped on the alleged victims.

Image
I am not sure what you mean when you say their bodies "would have been saturated with HCN". I think you may be over-egging the speed of the operation too. It's known the the concentration could reach 'safe' (I guess it wouldn't meet modern health and safety standards!) levels pretty quickly irrespective of whatever flannel Rudolf has come out with. See e.g.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/
At Auschwitz-Birkenau, in the gas chambers of crematoria II and III, Zyklon-B was poured in through holes in the roof. After early experiments with this poison, the camp staff had learned that it was important to allow the pellets of Zyklon to be removed after the victims' death, and also to spread them to increase the speed of outgassing.

The solution to these problems was a wire mesh column, which ran from the floor up through the roof. An SS man, wearing a gas mask and standing on the roof, would pour the pellets into the top of the column and place a wooden cover over it. The pellets fell into an inner wire mesh basket, which held them as they released their poison into the gas chamber.

After the mass murder was complete, the cover was opened, the basket was pulled up, and the Zyklon expelled the remainder of its poison harmlessly into the open air. Meanwhile, the ventilation of the gas chamber and the cremation of the corpses could begin.

These columns are listed in the inventory of crematorium II, March 31, 1943, as "wire-mesh insertion devices" (Drahtnetzeinschiebvorrichtung) with "wooden covers" (Holzblenden).
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... o-columns/
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Post by Dogsmilk »

Alulim wrote:
chek wrote:
Alulim wrote: I already have. Me. Why do you persist in your mendacity?
Well apart from your good self, who no doubt stands as a beacon of rectitude, can you show examples of any holocaust revisionist/denial sites you may be more familiar than me with, that aren't in bed with Nazi's? Closet or otherwise.
It wouldn't matter what I posted. You would claim that they are associated with Nazis because they are Holocaust(TM) deniers, and all Holocaust(TM) deniers associate with Nazis. Anybody who has ever associated with a Nazi is, in fact a Nazi. Somewhere, at sometime a Holocaust(TM) denier associated with a Nazi. Therefore, anybody who associates with Holocaust(TM) deniers is a Nazi. And since you are associating with me, and I pretty much deny The Holocaust(TM), you must be a Nazi.

Love how that works, eh?
The issue you are avoiding is that Nazis have a vested interest in attacking the Holocaust as it is the largest PR gaffe possible for their ideology.
I don't see why you are reluctant to at least acknowledge that Nazis have a political motivation to champion Holocaust denial - just look at Stormfront, it's basically a given for their membership - even if you yourself would say you follow it for more 'noble' reasons.

It's interesting how this appeared in a Germar Rudolf 'strategy paper'.
We have no problem with calling belief in the Holocaust or the gas chambers the central crux of all German and even international politics. All dogmas of postwar politics are based on it liberalism, tolerance, parliamentary democracy, equality of men, multi-culture etc. With it the anti-fascist club becomes a deadly weapon, all bigger problems are declared taboos and factored out (democracy, national identity, culture, policies regarding women, foreigner issues etc.). He who destroys 'Auschwitz' destroys this order of the world (at least in the heads of people). This fact is recognized only by few, and of these in turn only few favor the destruction of the myth, even if they consider it justified (Golo Mann: Auschwitz is desirable under popular-educational aspects)."
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