Jon Ronson on CNN.

General discussion on 9/11, the ‘War on Terror’ and War on Freedom.

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Justin
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Post by Justin »

Hi Jon

Very pleased that a proper dialogue can start between us - by the way thanks for your link to your documentary on David Icke. I watched it again and, yes, it was a balanced programme and it did paint the tiny minority who tried to stop him speaking in Canada as the real extremists.

Concerning your recent post:
I tell you what, though, all this obsession with the "zionists" makes the whole thing look nuts to an outside eye.
Please have a look at this from the BBC - Zionism (Christian and Jewish) IMHO cannot be ignored in our research.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 969542.stm

Analysis: America's new Christian Zionists


Lobbying for Israel

The Jewish lobby has long been perceived as a powerful influence on US foreign policy but, as BBC Washington correspondent Stephen Sackur reveals, Israel has found new support from American Christians.

Since 11 September support among Americans for Israel has grown massively as many now see the Middle East conflict as the frontline in the US "War on Terror".

Joining well-established Jewish lobby groups in America is a new and powerful phenomenon - Christian Zionism.

There are an estimated 40 million Christian Conservatives in America and they may be in a position to wield unprecedented influence in support of Israel.

Listen to this programme in full


Fundraising


Pastor John Hagee's Christian Church is pro-Israel


At the Cornerstone Church in Texas 5,000 Christian worshippers cheer in support of Israel. "Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Jewish state. Not since Camp David but since King David," says their leader, Pastor John Hagee.

Many high profile Israeli politicians have addressed this congregation, among them former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

Cornerstone Church is by no means unique in America. Republican activist Gary Bauer says there is growing support for Israel from Christian Conservatives.

New allies


Nachum Segal encourages his listeners to support Israel


This new movement is forging an alliance with American Jewish organisations. They rely on grass-roots activists, encouraged by boosters like Nachum Segal.

He hosts America's biggest Jewish radio show - JM in the AM - Jewish Moments in the Morning. Mr Segal constantly urges his listeners to work in support of Israel.

The best-known pro-Israel lobby group is Aipac, the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee. It is rated as one of the top five lobbying groups in Washington.

"Aipac has a lot of influence on foreign policy," says JJ Goldberg, editor of the Jewish newspaper The Forward. "They work hard to ensure that America endorses pretty much Israel's view of the world and the Middle East."

Aipac says its main role is providing information and denies that it puts pressure on politicians to support Israel.

By contrast, pro-Palestinian lobbyists say they face an uphill battle to make their voice heard. Khalid Turaani of American Muslims for Jerusalem says the pro-Israel lobby are better funded, better organised and much better established.

Influencing American policy?

Some left of centre activists like MJ Rosenberg of the Israeli Policy Forum are worried about the new alliance between hawkish Jewish groups and Christian conservatives. They fear it may constrain President George W Bush's ability to mediate fairly between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

"It's more than damaging," he says. "It's frightening."


Congressman Wexler believes lobbyists are not affecting US policy


But Congressman Robert Wexler ridicules suggestions that Israel's supporters control American policy in the Middle East. Instead, he says, America supports Israel because they share fundamental values.

"Americans are just solid, rock-solid with the people of Israel," says Congressman Wexler. "It is a democratic nation and a freedom-loving people and a very decent people and they deserve to have a free and secure state."
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Post by brian »

jonronson, I never shouted nor patronised you. I admit allowing my frustration to show somewhat but for that I make no apologies.

My reasons -

You yourself have just agreed that indeed -

"The world is truly going to hell on the back of 9/11"

Yet you tell us your inclination to disbelieve it was an inside job is not evidential based.

I am grateful you told us that, otherwise some may have given your scepticism value it evidently does not merit.
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Post by flamesong »

jonronson wrote:"I realise that you cannot be held responsible for what others write but you are a moderator on your forum and to complain about rudeness here does seem a bit rich."

Fair point, although I myself have never been rude to anyone on my forum.

"...a skill which the media (whether Zionist controlled or not)..."

Not.


"...elicits accusations of lizardry which I believe has been encouraged by your style of sarcastic journalism."

Huh? Nothing to do with me. My film about David Icke wasn't about lizards at all. It was about the burgeoning pressure-cooker of paranoia on both sides of the fence.

Watch it for yourself...

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... ews+ronson
Well, it looks like you have gone, Jon.

I'm disappointed that you depart having presented a dithering answer to my post and avoiding the most pertinent points.

You claim that your SRotW documentary was not about lizards at all. Apart from failing to see the point, that your piss-taking leads to the tarring of all sceptics with the same brush, the David Icke episode had a quite liberally scättering of lizard mentions. I'm not going to watch it again because I think just by reminding you of a quote I remember will dismiss your plea of innocence:

'...when David Icke says lizards, I suspect he really means lizards'.

And you came with one question which cannot be answered (not even to support the official theory) and avoided answering my point. You make one poorly aimed shot which but have no answer to any of the questions which 9/11 truth seekers ask.

But you seem to be gone. Tail between your legs? Head in the sand? Back to your own forum with tales of triumph? Who knows, Jon? But there is a perpetual flood of people who can at least recognise that it doesn't all add up and there are quite a few who will find themselves on a horse to high to get down from.
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Post by flamesong »

BTW, staff, why is the word, 's-c-a-t-t-e-r-i-n-g' bleeped out?
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Post by TimmyG »

come on guys.
whatever grudges you hold against ronson just let them go so we can have a dialogue on here.

the films of his i've seen have been a bit sarcastic at times. but (as much as i find his theories interesting) i don't think david icke does himself any favours. after all he does believe the queen is a shapeshifting lizard. you can't expect people not to mock him slightly.

lets not scare off people who might actually be able to consider what we are saying! getting 9/11 truth issues presented in a rational way in the msm should be a priority of the movement.
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act"
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Post by brian »

TimmyG, if you are refering in part to my posts to jonronson I think you misinterpret them.

His cavalier attitude to the issue - "Maybe I'll investigate it one day" - suggests to me his interest in the truth of the matter is sadly lacking. as he himself put it - "I am not inclined to believe 9/11 was an inside job"

This website is clearly peopled by those that have done the research and know beyond any reasonable doubt that it was an inside job. It is also a very good resource for those inclined and willing to look at the evidence.

I personally see little if any benefit to be gained indulging anyone who is not even inclined to look at the evidence, especially when they ask questions which amount to nothing more than trite obfuscation.
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Post by ian neal »

I suggest a quick summary is called for

It is understandable that Jon should visit the site to respond to comments posted about him.

He is supportive of the need for further governmental investigations

He admits to not being very familiar with the 9/11 truth movement and the evidence but is open to investigating it.

Jon, if he so choose to be, could be an influential voice in bringing 9/11 truth to a wider audience.

His previous rather scathing take on conspiracy theories in the past, would count in 'our' favour if he were to come out publicly in support of 9/11 truth and be inclined to believe the 9/11 was an inside job. It is to be hoped that Jon could be persuaded to be a supportive voice towards our campaign but if not there is no point in picking a fight

I suggest further debate with Jon on the merits of the evidence, which really needs to be understood in totality, is not helpful at present. 'We' will only end up arguing over detail with someone who accepts is not familiar with the evidence or worse, this thread will descend into pointless trading of insults (Not that Jon has insulted anyone).

So, Jon,

I hope you do contact Andrew and dig into the evidence he will steer you towards. And when you have done the research, come back and discuss the evidence and 9/11 truth in more detail with us.

The 'hostile' reception you have received from some here is understandable to me. It is the nature of public forums in general and in particular the criticism 9/11 truth has attracted from often uninformed critics in the past.

If you want to have a more considered 'off-line' discussion with some of the leading campaigners that will help you understand who we are and where we have come from, that can be arranged.

So Jon, what do you reckon to the idea that you go away and (if so inclined) do a bit of research and then resume contact when you are ready for an informed conversation? I welcome your interest in 'us'

Best wishes

Ian
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Post by John White »

Absolutely Ian, well said

This site is based around discovering the truth of what happened in and over the USA on September 11th 2001

I am prepared to listen to all opinions and all attitudes, but I dont need to put anything in Jon Ronson's face: I've got no problem with him

Now hes here and reading the site, lets talk about concrete, steel and melting temperatures

If 911 is shown to be utterley impossible physically if we are to believe we have the truth now, we do not need to know the political affiliation of any potential culprits: only their methods of operation

With the full power of voice of the citizenry, any government will have to hear, and may well not like what the people have to say: But it is the people who have the power and any elite of rulers balances on a precarious peak

I'd like Jon to know that, in my observation travelling around the country, the people DO know, in increasingly significant numbers, and are quitely muttering about their government wondering what to do about it: Because people say nothing does not mean they are not aware

A demand for ethics and transparency would most definately be heard
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Post by ian neal »

John White wrote:Now hes here and reading the site, lets talk about concrete, steel and melting temperatures
Let's talk about whatever Jon wants to talk about if he decides to return and ONCE he has done a bit more research is my suggestion.

I agree there is much more awareness of 9/11 than is acknowledged in the MSM (just see the 2 zogby 9/11 polls in the states). It would be very useful to have a UK poll to test (1) awareness of the 9/11 truth movement and (2) support for a further investigation in this country. Not that expensive and something that would be good to have in time for the 5th anniversary.
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Post by John White »

Whatever lever works is my motto Ian:

Theres plenty of substance available here!
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Post by DeFecToR »

I know you've probably stopped redaing this topic but just in case you haven't i implore you, watch this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAoe26Ma ... fox%20news

Its only about 20mins long and it might go some way to explaining why some of us 'fundamentalists' believe that Israel played a part in the attacks, and why zionism is such a powerful force in the world. Do bare in mind though that this is only a small part of the story.

I must admit that though i do not particulary like you, i am very glad that you are willing to contact members of this movement for further discussion on the subject of what really happened on 911. A lot of us would be very interested to hear your views again at a later stage should they be altered or otherwise. I know i called you a shill and a twat and i honestly do apologise for that. Truth be told i'm still at two minds over your reasons/motivations for what you believe, but i know i should remain hopeful that you are indeed honest and willing to admit you are wrong if it can be proved so.
Good luck on your search. I hope you join us.
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Post by Ally »

Alex Jones has made several films detailing how 911 was an inside job. How can Jon feign ignorance and buy the official story in light of his claims about being great mates with Jones?

Does he consider Jones a lying charlatan trying to cream money out of gullible conspiracy theorists?
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Post by andyb »

Apologies to Jon if he feels he is being attacked, a number of us on this thread have remained calm and appreciate his willingness to talk to us.

Just a quick answer to Jon's question as to why bring the 2 towers down. The WTC was owned by the New Yrok public until 6 weeks prior to 9/11. It was bought and huge insurance policies were taken out byt Larry Silverstein, specifically including acts of terror. The building was in need of gutting due to the asbestos that was used in it's construction. I highly doubt Larry didn't know this and by all it accounts removing all the asbestos was going to cost a forutne. Surely just easier to heave them come crashing down, although the asbestos in the air after the collapse has accounted for a number of breathing problems for residents and workers. Also, it did get seen around the world and allowed for America to push their agenda.

Another often overlooked fact is that the biggest deploymeent of British troops since the Falklands began on 3 Septemebr to Oman, a very handy base for an attack on Afghanistan. The gas pipeline(IMO) was the main reason to go into Afghanistan. The contract was thought to be going to the US and ended up going to an Argentian firm. This contract was reneged upon after the invasion. The Argentinian company have recenlty been awarded a large amount of compensation in the US courts, going in 100's of millions of dollars.
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Post by Ally »

Do you really think Jon doesn't already know all that?
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Maybe

Post by IronSnot »

But the stuff about the argentine firm is new to me, who knows if Jon Ronson has run across it. Any links for that story?

I seem to have missed all the fun. Jon next squizz this way could you possibly let me know what your sign-in on GUT is?

Ta.
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Post by andyb »

Ally, I for one don't know whether he knows this or not. By his own admission he has not doen much research into the subject and seems a busy fellow so it would not surprise me.

Re the Argentinian payout(Bridas was the company)

http://www.rense.com/general68/takeback.htm There are further links in this article
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Post by ian neal »

Whilst Jon is unlikely to win the journalist of the year award from many here, I think it is entirely fair that Jon came here to respond to the question about whether he is a shill (kind of a leading question) and having acknowledged that he is no 9/11 expert, I reckon we give him some time to do a bit of research and if he is so inclined we should welcome him back once he has looked into 9/11
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Post by DeFecToR »

I agree Ian Neal. I really dont like the way this guy works but if he is willing to examine the evidence with an open mind and is willing to engage in a progressive dialogue, i for one would eagerly give him a second chance.
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Post by xmasdale »

Re the frisson of disagreement over whether someone made an anti-semitic remark, it should be noted that it is normal among minority groups who face discrimination to be suspicious of any new group they encounter. We have our antennae well attuned during a first encounter in order to pick up the vibes of whether we would be welcome or face discrimination within the new group.

Jon Ronson is a Jew, he has told us, a member of a group who do frequently face discrimination and prejudice. As a gay man I am in a similar position. I can choose to tell people I'm gay or not, but if I don't, I usally face a feeling of having let down my gay brothers and sisters. Similarly a Jew can choose whether or not to reveal they are Jewish. In both cases once having made that declaration, we offen get expressions of surprise:

"Oh! Really! I would never have thought so. Some of my best friends are gay/Jewish. You don't look like one (No limp wrist/long nose)." :D

When I want to test whether I'm going to face discrimination in a group I usually let them know early that I'm gay. If they don't react well I know not to waste my time with them.

In a world where people get so confused between political Zionism and Jewishness, I am not in the least surprised that Jon had his guard up when he first posted on our site. I hope we haven't frightened him off.

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Post by flamesong »

On his own forum, jonronson wrote:Okay. I am getting into too much trouble. I am not going to say another word about 9/11 until I have done masses more research...
http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1232

Well, that's a result of sorts...
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Post by DeFecToR »

Flamesong; Now THAT is positive. It would seem i may be eating my words very soon. And i'm sure they'll taste great. If this guy really is just uneducated on the subject (i honestly thought he wasnt and was choosing what to believe) and will see whats what on 911 then i'll even forgive his hack jobs on Jones and Icke. After all, this guy has a modicum of clout. People may listen to him. Hell, he may even produce a doc on 911.
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Post by flamesong »

Well, I'm not holding my breath.

I gave him a lead about a bit of US propaganda masquerading as a documentary, 'Voices of Iraq'. He was very interested in it until he discovered that The Guardian weren't (and therefore would not be paying him to pursue it). Similarly with 'Conspiracy of Silence':

http://www.jonronson.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=205

With issues as serious as these it ought not matter whether your paymaster is interested.
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Post by DeFecToR »

Thats true he certainly did seem to drop the issue once The Guardian said no. Still, even if he does come on board with 911 i very much doubt The Guardian would do anything with it.
It should be very interesting to see what comes of all this. I'm a lot more optimistic about Jon Ronson than i first was. I truly hope he shows progress on 911. We'll have to wait and see i guess.
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Post by Andrew Johnson »

I've split all the argumentative and "thread splitting posts" to the Critics corner.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2888

Where they belong. It 's my attempt to keep things tidy, seeing as these people just barge in and post stuff we have already debated 100 times over (yawn).
Andrew

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Post by mason-free party »

has Ronson got it yet or still living a zionist lie?
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Post by suspecta »

I'm Jewish and totally understand Jon Ronson's attitude to anti-Zionist remarks. It's taken me a long time to accept the possibility that Mossad may or may not have had something to do with 9-11 and I would be immensely relieved if it turned out to be the work of ISI not Mossad. Actually I think all the intelligence services are linked in on this - but perhaps that's because it't too painful for me to face that Mossad may have had something to do with it?

The fact is that as a Jew with a mother who suffered Nazi persecution I do find myself loath to talk to non-Jews about the possibility of Mossad involvement because it immediately risks stirring up any latent anti-Semitism. Jews are in a very awkward position over all this, and you have to do a lot of explaining, ie: there's a big difference between extreme Zionism and secular Jewishness, with numerous permutations in between.

Quite honestly I think it all comes down to power and the corruption that comes with it. Israel has been aided and armed by the US for decades; it's also very close to the world's major oilfields. It is peopled by a few million people with a history of two thousands of years of persecution culminating with the Holocaust and they live surrounded by peoples who they are continually told would like nothing more than to 'push them into the sea'.

Even with all the awareness I have about Mossad's activities, and Israel's links with US foreign policy, I still feel a visceral bond with Israel just because it's a Jewish state and I have friends there; friends with whom I disagree with utterly on foreign policy but friends I still love nonetheless.

So I think we have to hand it to Jon for coming on here and discussing with us, and for agreeing to do more research.

Suspecta

PS To get it clear, how many victims' names from the Pentagon plane do we actually know? And who were on a verifiable list? We need plain facts here, to settle any argument as to what may or not have happened to what may or may not have hit the Pentagon that day.
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MOSSAD or ISID

Post by Snowygrouch »

All,
Its ISID all the way IMHO.

C.
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Post by chek »

suspecta wrote:I'm Jewish and totally understand Jon Ronson's attitude to anti-Zionist remarks. It's taken me a long time to accept the possibility that Mossad may or may not have had something to do with 9-11 and I would be immensely relieved if it turned out to be the work of ISI not Mossad. Actually I think all the intelligence services are linked in on this - but perhaps that's because it't too painful for me to face that Mossad may have had something to do with it?

The fact is that as a Jew with a mother who suffered Nazi persecution I do find myself loath to talk to non-Jews about the possibility of Mossad involvement because it immediately risks stirring up any latent anti-Semitism. Jews are in a very awkward position over all this, and you have to do a lot of explaining, ie: there's a big difference between extreme Zionism and secular Jewishness, with numerous permutations in between.

Quite honestly I think it all comes down to power and the corruption that comes with it. Israel has been aided and armed by the US for decades; it's also very close to the world's major oilfields. It is peopled by a few million people with a history of two thousands of years of persecution culminating with the Holocaust and they live surrounded by peoples who they are continually told would like nothing more than to 'push them into the sea'.

Even with all the awareness I have about Mossad's activities, and Israel's links with US foreign policy, I still feel a visceral bond with Israel just because it's a Jewish state and I have friends there; friends with whom I disagree with utterly on foreign policy but friends I still love nonetheless.

So I think we have to hand it to Jon for coming on here and discussing with us, and for agreeing to do more research.

Suspecta

PS To get it clear, how many victims' names from the Pentagon plane do we actually know? And who were on a verifiable list? We need plain facts here, to settle any argument as to what may or not have happened to what may or may not have hit the Pentagon that day.

I'd also think that your feelings regarding the non-zionist Israel are the same as those majority of Americans who also, in simplified terms, still think that the Bush administration is one and the same thing as their country.
Once that linkage is broken, the dam will come down.
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Re: MOSSAD or ISID

Post by kbo234 »

Snowygrouch wrote:All,
Its ISID all the way IMHO.

C.
Could you explain what this means, C?
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Post by ian neal »

mason-free party wrote:has Ronson got it yet or still living a zionist lie?
MFP,

Are you being deliberately provocative?

Presumably you know the history of this thread and Jon's understandable response to being accused of being a shill, blah, blah?

Why does it have to be living a zionist lie?
suspecta wrote:I'm Jewish and totally understand Jon Ronson's attitude to anti-Zionist remarks....... Actually I think all the intelligence services are linked in on this ........... there's a big difference between extreme Zionism and secular Jewishness, with numerous permutations in between..... Quite honestly I think it all comes down to power and the corruption that comes with it............ So I think we have to hand it to Jon for coming on here and discussing with us, and for agreeing to do more research...
Agreed suspecta.
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