Nicholas Kollerstrom - Truther?

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Micpsi
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Post by Micpsi »

Wibble wrote:
Micpsi wrote:
Wibble wrote: So when it really comes down to it you are just chosing not to believe the evidence becasue it suits you. You have no genuine reason to doubt the evidence except for you assume it must be lies. Great argument and sadly typical of the majority of "Truthers".
So when it really comes down to it, you are just choosing to believe the evidence because it suits you. You have no genuine reason to believe the evidence except for you (to) assume it must be true. Great argument and sadly typical of the majority of mindless "Believers."
What? The evidence has been presented in a legitimate manner by legitimate people. If you have any real proof it is false then challenge in a court of law. If a return ticket and a train timetable is your only evidence then dont be surprised if people dont accept your view that it is a conspiracy.
Of course it is not the only evidence. There's a whole raft of anomalies and contradictions between what witnesses said and the official story that strongly indicates conspiracy. Cherry-picking just one or two in order to debunk them and then pretending no others exist is just a piece of sophistry that should fool no one.
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Post by Wibble »

About 11 months for you to reply and thats all you have got?

Please list some of these alleged anomalies and we will see who is cherry picking what?
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Post by TonyGosling »

How about
1) Exercise based on identical tube stations
2) Government train times shown to be wrong
3) Unexplained report of pre bomb warning, denied at press conference by Brian Paddick
4) Strange appeaance of extra bombs in car in Luton Car Park
5) Absence of expected evidence from CCTV
6) Eyewitness reports alleged bomber Hasib Hussein was not on the bus
7) Public Enquiry de rigeur for multiple suspicious deaths like this - see Coroners Act - still diddley-squat
need I go on?
Wibble wrote:About 11 months for you to reply and thats all you have got?

Please list some of these alleged anomalies and we will see who is cherry picking what?
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Post by Micpsi »

And Cambridge dancer Bruce Lait said:
"The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag."
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... %26hl%3Den
Photo of hole:
http://lege.net/blog.lege.net/financial ... -floor.jpg

P.S. I rarely visit Critics' Corner - hence your long wait for my reply.
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Post by fish5133 »

ref photo of hole in carriage floor. Trying to evaluate picture but it doesnt IMO look like debris pointing upwards to suggest bomb beneath carriage. Presume photo is taken inside carriage
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Post by Chi_of_life »

Nick Kollerstrom is a very interesting guy. With some fascinating views.
I had a talk with once and he will be speaking more about these anomalies on Tuesday the 30 June at the Conway Hall... not to be missed.


Conway Hall, Red Lion Square, nr Holborn tube.
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Post by Micpsi »

fish5133 wrote:ref photo of hole in carriage floor. Trying to evaluate picture but it doesnt IMO look like debris pointing upwards to suggest bomb beneath carriage. Presume photo is taken inside carriage
The surviving witness himself said that metal in the floor was bent upwards. Read again my earlier quote of his statement. Also notice the piece of jagged metal pointing upwards on the left.
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Post by Micpsi »

Chi_of_life wrote:Nick Kollerstrom is a very interesting guy. With some fascinating views.
I had a talk with once and he will be speaking more about these anomalies on Tuesday the 30 June at the Conway Hall... not to be missed.


Conway Hall, Red Lion Square, nr Holborn tube.
Nick was a good friend of mine when we were undergraduates at Cambridge University. I respect his research into 7/7.
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Post by uselesseater »

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger.
Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters.
Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."

This text from a so called martyrdom video makes no reference to martyrdom, or blowing oneself up put in simple terms.
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Post by uselesseater »

Micpsi wrote:
fish5133 wrote:ref photo of hole in carriage floor. Trying to evaluate picture but it doesnt IMO look like debris pointing upwards to suggest bomb beneath carriage. Presume photo is taken inside carriage
The surviving witness himself said that metal in the floor was bent upwards. Read again my earlier quote of his statement. Also notice the piece of jagged metal pointing upwards on the left.

Yes he did say that but more importantly, the Policeman said 'that's where the bomb was'

But because Mr Lait's account of what he saw and what the policeman said doesn't fit with the official conspiracy theory we can disregard it. :roll:
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Post by sam »

fish5133 wrote:ref photo of hole in carriage floor. Trying to evaluate picture but it doesnt IMO look like debris pointing upwards to suggest bomb beneath carriage. Presume photo is taken inside carriage
Agreed. It looks like the floor has been blasted downwards, exposing some metal framework that was previously hidden.
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Post by Wibble »

[quote="TonyGosling"]How about
1) Exercise based on identical tube stations
2) Government train times shown to be wrong
3) Unexplained report of pre bomb warning, denied at press conference by Brian Paddick
4) Strange appeaance of extra bombs in car in Luton Car Park
5) Absence of expected evidence from CCTV
6) Eyewitness reports alleged bomber Hasib Hussein was not on the bus
7) Public Enquiry de rigeur for multiple suspicious deaths like this - see Coroners Act - still diddley-squat
need I go on?

[quote]

You need to back this up. One line statements/questions are almost meaningless. So yes, you need to go on.
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Post by Frazzel »

wibble
the fact that the police got the train times wrong shows how they were complacent and were not interested in a proper enquiry or investigation.
how irresponible of them when people had died.
ask yourself why the police did not do a proper SOC scene of crimes investigation?
if a loved one of mine had died on that day i would be hopping mad that they couldnt even b e bothered to get the times of the trains right.

also tha fact that tony blair said to have a proper investigation was a ludicrous diversion!!
it may be for him but not for the rest of us who want to know how it happened.

Also how come Netanyahu got a warning minutes before the first bomb went off not to to go to bishopsgate. We londoners didnt get any warning.
"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" Martin Luther king
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Post by Wibble »

if a loved one of mine had died on that day i would be hopping mad that they couldnt even b e bothered to get the times of the trains right
So please tell me what percentage of the loved ones and victims have question the report and have joined the truth movement?

A c*** up on train times does not prove a conspiracy!! Until you prove other wise its just a c*** up. Humans make mistakes you know.
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Post by ian neal »

The narrative says ......
The London King’s Cross train leaves Luton station. There are
conflicting accounts of their behaviour on the train. Some witnesses
report noisy conversations, another believes he saw 2 of them
standing silently by a set of train doors. The 4 stood out a bit from
usual commuters due to their luggage and casual clothes, but not
enough to cause suspicion. This was the beginning of the summer
tourist period and Luton Station serves Luton Airport.
This implicitly implies that the police/authorities spoke to several witnesses who saw the alleged bombers on the train. Presumably these unnamed witnesses would have been asked and would have been able to confirm which train they caught that morning including any delays and cancellations. And yet the information of the train cancellation and a wide spread debate surrounding its implications was in the public domain months prior to the narrative's release.

So it is not just the c***-up of the unnamed author of the official narrative that needs to be explained away but how this occured. You would assume that the author based their account on the Metropolitan police who in turn would have based it on eye-witness interviews. How did the police and these eye-witnesses 'c***-up' when it was in fact the police that notified the home office of their 'c***-up'? If the author did not rely on the police and their interviews with eye-witnesses, just what did the author base his or her account on?

Sure in life human's make mistakes, but if they are genuine mistakes they are usually very simply explained away. No one at the home office has adequately explained how this 'c***-up' occured.
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Post by Micpsi »

uselesseater wrote:
Micpsi wrote:
fish5133 wrote:ref photo of hole in carriage floor. Trying to evaluate picture but it doesnt IMO look like debris pointing upwards to suggest bomb beneath carriage. Presume photo is taken inside carriage
The surviving witness himself said that metal in the floor was bent upwards. Read again my earlier quote of his statement. Also notice the piece of jagged metal pointing upwards on the left.

Yes he did say that but more importantly, the Policeman said 'that's where the bomb was'

But because Mr Lait's account of what he saw and what the policeman said doesn't fit with the official conspiracy theory we can disregard it. :roll:
Use some logic for a change. The policeman's statement was merely an inference based upon a presupposed scenario of a bomb exploding INSIDE the train carriage, whereas the witness's statement was first-hand observation.

Now, in a court of law, just who is the jury going to prefer to believe?

I rest my case, m'lud.
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Post by paul wright »

I've had a harsh word or two for Nick in the past, but must admit his book is fine thorough and conclusive - as far as can be
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Post by Wibble »

ian neal wrote: Sure in life human's make mistakes, but if they are genuine mistakes they are usually very simply explained away. No one at the home office has adequately explained how this 'c***-up' occured.
Have you written to them to ask for an explanation?

Regardless, this is still not proof of a conspiracy. The eye witness accounts, DNA etc from the damaged carriages and bus prove the bombers were there.

All the pictures of the bomb damage I have seen clearly show large dents in the floors which would not have happened if the bombs were below the floor. As always, the Truthers are picking and choosing the evidence the believe/see to fit the conspiracy angle.
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Post by paul wright »

Wibble wrote:
ian neal wrote: Sure in life human's make mistakes, but if they are genuine mistakes they are usually very simply explained away. No one at the home office has adequately explained how this 'c***-up' occured.
Have you written to them to ask for an explanation?

Regardless, this is still not proof of a conspiracy. The eye witness accounts, DNA etc from the damaged carriages and bus prove the bombers were there.

All the pictures of the bomb damage I have seen clearly show large dents in the floors which would not have happened if the bombs were below the floor. As always, the Truthers are picking and choosing the evidence the believe/see to fit the conspiracy angle.
Large dents? The angles of the pictures, 1 or 2?, make it impossible to verify upward or downward. Downward from TATP would be hard to achieve through homemade bombs- the line of least resistance would be sought by the pressure of the explosive blast. Looks to me that in the photo(s) there is upturned metal. Perhaps easier to achieve through military grade explosives. This latter still wouldn't explain the implosion of windows in carriages
The eye witness accounts are non-existent as far as the Tube is concerned, and the DNA evidence is equally fallacious, dependent only on assertion
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Post by Wibble »

paul wright wrote:
Large dents? The angles of the pictures, 1 or 2?, make it impossible to verify upward or downward. Downward from TATP would be hard to achieve through homemade bombs- the line of least resistance would be sought by the pressure of the explosive blast. Looks to me that in the photo(s) there is upturned metal. Perhaps easier to achieve through military grade explosives. This latter still wouldn't explain the implosion of windows in carriages
The eye witness accounts are non-existent as far as the Tube is concerned, and the DNA evidence is equally fallacious, dependent only on assertion
So you are saying there is no dent on this picture? You cant see the floor slopping down into the hole?

http://lege.net/blog.lege.net/financial ... -floor.jpg

The black bit on the left sticking up looks like plastic and light thin stuff like that is bound flail about. You can also see a dent and downward bend in one of the support beams that runs left to right. You can even see where blood has run down and out through the hole.


Get your blinkers off!!


PS Assuming the DNA evidence is fake is a very, very, very weak argument.

EDIT: Link fixed
Last edited by Wibble on Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by paul wright »

That's a bad link
I know the picture you're referring to
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Post by Wibble »

paul wright wrote:That's a bad link
I know the picture you're referring to
and??????





Link was cut and paste from further up the page and hopefully works now.
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Post by paul wright »

Most of the little primary evidence from witnesses at the time refer to upwards shards of metal and imploding windows
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Post by paul wright »

The picture link works again , but I've a feeling there is a better picture
Still why would the official story be proved right? Explosive force will always take the line of least resistance. Backpacks will blow out everything around them but shouldn't have the power to blow the floor before they take the roof off
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Post by Wibble »

Sorry, what qualification in explosives do you have? If nothing you are purely speculating based only on the fact you do not believe the official story.

How can a bomb underneath the floor dent the floor downwards?
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Post by paul wright »

http://www.prisonplanet.com/new-77-bomb ... story.html
Note the floor to ceiling damage and the pristine seating
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Post by Wibble »

Please answer my question?

That new photo does not prove it one way or the other.
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Post by sam »

paul wright wrote: Explosive force will always take the line of least resistance. Backpacks will blow out everything around them but shouldn't have the power to blow the floor before they take the roof off
This is the most appalling nonsense.

Try exploding a small device on the palm of your hand if you're so confident. Or explain why a landmine or other explosive detonated on the surface leaves a crater.
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Post by jesussdad »

sam wrote:
paul wright wrote: Explosive force will always take the line of least resistance. Backpacks will blow out everything around them but shouldn't have the power to blow the floor before they take the roof off
This is the most appalling nonsense.

Try exploding a small device on the palm of your hand if you're so confident. Or explain why a landmine or other explosive detonated on the surface leaves a crater.
i used to make dummy landmines for the army training and i know that they are placed up to 1 ft underground which would obviously make a crater.

your second point gives no reference to explosive types . which have varying outcomes . or surdace types of varying strength and density .

anyway the conspiracy argument doesnt rely on this one issue which could possibly be a diversion from the bigger picture
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Post by paul wright »

jesussdad wrote:
sam wrote:
paul wright wrote: Explosive force will always take the line of least resistance. Backpacks will blow out everything around them but shouldn't have the power to blow the floor before they take the roof off
This is the most appalling nonsense.

Try exploding a small device on the palm of your hand if you're so confident. Or explain why a landmine or other explosive detonated on the surface leaves a crater.
i used to make dummy landmines for the army training and i know that they are placed up to 1 ft underground which would obviously make a crater.


your second point gives no reference to explosive types . which have varying outcomes . or surdace types of varying strength and density .

anyway the conspiracy argument doesnt rely on this one issue which could possibly be a diversion from the bigger picture
Yes, thanks jesussdad (I think) I don't think skin and flesh and even bone offer much resistance to explosive force. Unlike rigid metal surfaces

My point about the roof is that it's mainly just a covering, whereas the floor needs to be a lot stronger to support weight and to maintain attachment between the carriage and the means of locomotion
Doesn't require a physics degree as is often argued, just a common sense understanding of how the physical world is
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