A Truth

[IronSnot]

Challenge:

MiniMauve, IronSnot etc:

Post a name, address and contact telephone number.

Why, Andrew?

[chipmunk stew]

if you don't at least look at the information.

I've downloaded it. I'll have a look at it, but I should add that I'm more interested in hijackers and aircraft at the moment. My physics is nonsense (although I'm quite capable of fixing that) so I don't get involved in the collapse/demolition stuff.

but the author probably chose that word because part of the document focuses on highlighting misstatements and distorted half-truths perpetuated by some of the most prominent Truth Movement torchbearers that are difficult to classify as anything but lies.

So it is as it sounds then.

Indeed it is;

World Trade Center Building 7 and the Lies of the 9/11 “Truth Move-ment”
Mark Roberts sets out it in fairly plain language the reason for the document.

Did firefighters abandon their fallen brothers
An unsophisticated attempt to appeal to patriotism.

Conspiracist Alex Jones and other 9/11 “Truth Movement” leaders
We arn't all fans of Alex Jones, in fact I can't stand him. And Mark Roberts is attempting to slime by association, having already defined what a 'leader' is.

gather at Ground Zero and accuse Silverstein of murder
too bad, because this is exactly what your side does as well, also on the flimsiest of evidence.

and FDNY heroes
Another unsophisticated attempt to scare away debate by utilising the Un-American epithet.

of heinous crimes, lies and cover-ups.
Nobody is accusing the FDNY firefighters of anything. But basically yes there has been a coverup (this is not even debateable) and we happen to think a hell of a lot of lies (and Press for Truth shows Condoleeza lying in front of the 911 Commission), but once again the use of the word 'henious' indicates a fair amount of bias from Mark Roberts.

Basically it's quite apt that you've linked this document on this thread. We now have two examples from both sides of the argument about how to restrict debate and to define the parameters of what is acceptable. It is quite obviously unpatriotic to question 9/11 at all from Mark Robert's point of view, and unpatriotic/shillish to question Andrew Johnson's approach from this side of the debate. That's exactly the same thing and very, very undemocratic. You're two sides of the same coin.

And it leaves me with absolutely no confidence that what I'm about to read from Mark Roberts is an unbiased scholarly review of the available evidence re the collapse of WTC 7.

It's completely biased. Clearly. He makes no effort to conceal his bias. In fact, he wears it on his sleeve rather proudly. This is in stark contrast to, say, Steven Jones, who fancies himself an unbiased, honest researcher, whereas his biases are obvious and deeply entrenched.

But Roberts also makes a very compelling argument about WTC7, and there's a ton of information in there that you can put to your own analysis. You know where Roberts stands. You can evaluate each piece of his argument against his biases. It would be foolish, though, simply to dismiss his entire argument because he's biased. Who, about this issue, is not?

[Jay Ref]

Your movement is about to face un-controlled demolition. As you can see in the above exchange they've already started eating their own.

I've been looking in on this "movement" since LC exploded onto the internet. Yes, LC really was compelling and pumped up the movement. Yet the momentum has since been lost. It's been lost simply because LC and LC2E and LC "Final Cut" is completely and utterly dependent on innuendo, opinion, and bald faced lies. The normal intelligent (yet credulous) person seeing LC for the first time likely got excited about the "inside job" and was spurred on by the film to do more research. As they did they say very quickly that LC was easily refuted. within a few days the smart ones were already lost to the movement. Within a few weeks of first watching LC even the stupid ones were reluctantly letting go of the conspiracy theory.

The only people who have the staying power andmotivation to "hit the streets" with this nonsense are the crazy ones. Paranoid, delusional...kinda like the folks who run this site.

Just my observations. Have a nice day.

-z

[Andrew Johnson]

I LOVE it!!

Have a GREAT day you guys!

[chek]

Just my observations. Have a nice day.

-z

Er ...correction: make that 'worthless' observations.

[John White]

Your movement is about to face un-controlled demolition. As you can see in the above exchange they've already started eating their own.

I've been looking in on this "movement" since LC exploded onto the internet. Yes, LC really was compelling and pumped up the movement. Yet the momentum has since been lost. It's been lost simply because LC and LC2E and LC "Final Cut" is completely and utterly dependent on innuendo, opinion, and bald faced lies. The normal intelligent (yet credulous) person seeing LC for the first time likely got excited about the "inside job" and was spurred on by the film to do more research. As they did they say very quickly that LC was easily refuted. within a few days the smart ones were already lost to the movement. Within a few weeks of first watching LC even the stupid ones were reluctantly letting go of the conspiracy theory.

The only people who have the staying power andmotivation to "hit the streets" with this nonsense are the crazy ones. Paranoid, delusional...kinda like the folks who run this site.

Just my observations. Have a nice day.

-z

Someones feeling frustrated

If a genuine observation, does make one wonder about the morbid obsession with "paranoid and delusional" people on display

[IronSnot]

Dream on Jay. Yeah there's a few nuts around, but they're not the be all and end all, thank god.

Something will happen to knock over the official story pretty soon in my opinion. I havn't found it too hard to find a couple of promising holes and I intend to keep digging. And I imagine there's quite a few just like me.

I think you know, I know how to dig.

Digging up the Al-Shehris. Now that's fun.

[IronSnot]

I LOVE it!!

Have a GREAT day you guys!

Andrew just because it's you who is being critisised does not mean it's an automatic inclusion for Critics Corner (which I don't think is a good idea anyway) or that we're all official theory fans. Or that we're trolls like the great hologramist, Veronica suggested to you and which you seemed to take in hook, line and sinker. Even Veronica doesn't believe that.

Why don't you try, I don't know, maybe accepting a little dissent from your own point of view on this little board of yours. (and it is yours - regardless of who pays the bills)

Go on, give it a try.

[Andrew Johnson]

Go on, give it a try.

OK Big Boy! Whatever you say! I know you are right and I am wrong really. I'm a plant. I work for a counter-intelligence agency really.

Trying to get all these gentle truth-seekers under my wing - with loving thoughts. Then, with an evil cackle on my face I'm gonna turn around and say "Ha Ha! Now you are all MINE! MINE! MINE! Ha ha ha ha ha.... 9/11 Truth Movement is going the way of the DODO."

Sorry, I know. It's just I have an active imagination in circumstances such as this, where supposedly serious comments are made by someone with a handle which could be re-phrased FerricMucus. And on a thread where someone going by the name of Small Purple complains about my moderation activities.

Perhaps you can understand why I was a little self-indulgent with the previous paragraph.

It's something I do with students - I engage them in a "nonsense storm" before getting down to more serious work. Which reminds me... gotta catch up with a little marking and stuff.

Take care

ADJ

PS Hmmm. "Small Purple" what, I wonder? Oh dear me and my imagination....

[aggle-rithm]

Aren't the boring threads supposed to be kept in a separate area?

Change the channel, Marge!

[Veronica]

Or that we're trolls like the great hologramist, Veronica suggested to you and which you seemed to take in hook, line and sinker. Even Veronica doesn't believe that.

Name-dropping will get you nowhere, FerricMucus.

My physics is nonsense (although I'm quite capable of fixing that) so I don't get involved in the collapse/demolition stuff.

Why, then, don't you improve your Physics, instead of spending your time Trolling, FerricMucus? If you did that you would realise the utter stupidity of referring to me a 'hologramist'. Quite how your current science mixes me up with David Shayler, I'm at a loss to understand. Is it because he shaved his beard some while ago? Is that what confuses you? The science involved is very, very, basic ... it's a branch called Biology.

[chipmunk stew]

Aren't the boring threads supposed to be kept in a separate area?

Yeah, I think it's called the Creduloids' Castle.

Out of our corner, you! Shoo!

[IronSnot]

OK Big Boy!

I give up. I don't bother with #$@#s like you in real life, and I'm buggered if I'm going to do it online, no matter what.

I work for a counter-intelligence agency really.

You're very useful for the official theory, with your chemtrails, moon hoax and whatever other loonery you promote on your website.

As for the rest of your post it's just pure, unadulturated w.ankery, which seems to be the norm for you when faced with divergent views.

[IronSnot]

Name-dropping will get you nowhere, FerricMucus.

Irony, heh?

Could you translate the rest of that post for me, Veronica? I put it in babelfish but it just came back at me as 'these are the ravings of a fantasist and cannot be translated'.

Thanks.

[IronSnot]

Chipmunk, any room for a resident "inside jobber' over at JREF? I think I'm about to get banned here.

Free speech heh? Herd them in, chase away the sane and there you have it. Kookery. Very convenient.

[IronSnot]

I'll put that one down to the heat of the moment Bongo. I'm actually a few years younger than JayRef, but that doesn't make either of us spring chickens. I wish I was 20 again.

[chipmunk stew]

Chipmunk, any room for a resident "inside jobber' over at JREF? I think I'm about to get banned here.

Free speech heh? Herd them in, chase away the sane and there you have it. Kookery. Very convenient.

Well, we have Russell Pickering over there right now. He's very civil, and his arguments are very thorough and he clearly has done quite a bit of thinking about 9/11. He's also very willing to abandon a hypothesis that does not pan out. It's quite refreshing. Our usual crop of "inside jobbers" is much lesser to the task.

Any and all views are welcome, and the rules apply to everyone. Feel free to join any time.

[IronSnot]

Russel seems to be pretty good. I've been tempted to email him a few times but havn't yet. I actually stuck up for him a week or so ago on the Loose Change forum because he was taking quite a lot of flack at the time. In fact he probably takes more flak there than he does at JREF, it seems to be the nature of the beast.

[MiniMauve]

Way Hey!

Challenge:

MiniMauve, IronSnot etc:

Post a name, address and contact telephone number.

What have done to earn this type of trust?

Then we'll see who we should take seriously.

Ergo, all anonymous posters cannot be taken seriously?

And MM - you're doing it again - personalising the issue. It's easy with me as everyone knows who I am - you are an anonymous poster whom we know next to nothing about.

The issue didn't get personal til you began your ham-handed insinuations on my motives for posting. Follow the thread if your memory fails you. I actually ignored these insinuations the first couple of times they occurred in the NPT threads because of your Moderator title and your meek demeanor.

9/11 Truth, like other matters on my website is based on EVIDENCE not MY EGO.

I don't get it, Andrew. Why do you continually suggest that I'm challenging the evidence that the official theory is false? As much as you would like to portray our spat as being one of disagreement over accepted evidence of a 911 conspiracy, it's simply not true nor has it ever been true. It has from the start been disagreement over support of periferal, unaccepted theories which your ego has allowed to blossom into this silliness.

It's now been three times that I've asked you to post an example of my challenging of evidence that has been accepted as true by the Truth Movement. Each time you have ignored the question but returned with erroneous statements like the one above that insinuate that I am challenging that evidence. I'm not sure if your deflection of these questions is intentional or you simply don't understand what I'm saying. I did challenge NPT and I asked a few questions about chem trails. Which of these actions makes you think I believe the official theory is correct?

Let's all remember that shall we? I am a nobody who is not worth insulting.

As am I, which begs the question as to why you stirred the pot when I was prepared to let the issue die?

People can check the EVIDENCE for themselves. All I do is "put it out there" with some commentary for people to accept or reject. It's that simple.

Our disagreement has never been about the 'evidence' since we have always been in agreement that the official story is false and that an insider conspiracy is the real perpetrator of 911. Quit beating this tired horse.

All the other points you raise are irrelevant to that larger picture. Sorry guys.

Convenient

I don't expect respect from people - indeed I don't want it. I want them to wake up to the truth. I hope understand, but I guess, for various reasons, you don't.

Another ill-considered insult, Andrew. What exactly makes you think I'm not awake to the truth? Because I determined the 'evidence' for NPT was insufficient for deeper consideration and that I believe promotion of NPT hurts the fight to expose the 911 conspiracists? Or is it because I exposed my ignorance of chem trails by (gasp!) asking questions? Perhaps it's because I didn't meekly accpet your admonitions for asking those questions? What, Andrew?

People want to drag other things into the discussion - and once 9/11 Truth is fully exposed in the public consciousness, the other issues will follow (I know this from experience). So my view is the exact opposite of yours - and it is one shared privately by a surprising number of people I have spoken to.

Are you completely daft? Reread this thread and the NPT/Chem trail threads that spawned it. It was my opposition to or questioning of 'people dragging other things into the discussion' that you opposed me over!!!

Now, go ahead and cut/paste the portions of my response that you understand/can easily counter as per normal with you.

[Andrew Johnson]

As for the rest of your post it's just pure, unadulturated w.ankery, which seems to be the norm for you when faced with divergent views.

Yeah I know - shocking isn't it? Just shocking to post a link to a video clip on my website of what Neil Armstrong said in the Whitehouse in 1994. Pure fact - with no interpretation.

Like I said - I am determined to take down the 9/11 Truth movement by talking about facts and evidence. 9/11 truth is of course an isolated issue with no links into anything else that has been covered up. Cheers Ferrous Nasal Fluid!

[IronSnot]

OK Big Boy! Whatever you say! I know you are right and I am wrong really. I'm a plant. I work for a counter-intelligence agency really.

w.ankery.

Trying to get all these gentle truth-seekers under my wing - with loving thoughts. Then, with an evil cackle on my face I'm gonna turn around and say "Ha Ha! Now you are all MINE! MINE! MINE! Ha ha ha ha ha.... 9/11 Truth Movement is going the way of the DODO."

w.ankery

Sorry, I know. It's just I have an active imagination in circumstances such as this, where supposedly serious comments are made by someone with a handle which could be re-phrased FerricMucus.

w.ankery

And on a thread where someone going by the name of Small Purple complains about my moderation activities.

w.ankery

PS Hmmm. "Small Purple" what, I wonder? Oh dear me and my imagination....

w.ankery



And there's not one mention of Neil Armstrong there, Andrew. BUT yes I do think if you're going to put yourself in a position of speaking for the "9/11 Movement" AND you have on your website, stuff about "Moon landing Hoaxs" and chemtrails and god knows what else, then it matters not one iota how many cds you give away, how many posters you print up, how many MPs you write to, because you are doing much, much more damage to this "911 movement" than good.

The most mind-numbing of all of this to me, is that you seem to be completely unaware of this little inconvenient fact.

[IronSnot]

Dare I ask what NPT is?

I've actually got no idea, but I shudder at the thought of what it might be.

[IronSnot]

Ahh of course. I should have known.

No plane theory. Fukwittery at it's best.

NPT also means Non Proliferation Treaty. That's what we need when it comes to no-plane lunatics.