Is the 9/11 Truth Movement A Threat To Your Way Of Life?

[John White]

but when people don't believe in the validity of a POV it loses its power to influence the world

You are right, when people stop believing in someting, it loses power. Conversely, when people start believing in something, it gains power.

Looking back through history, we have seen lots of beliefs gain power. The hysteria surrounding the Black Plague led to jewish massacres across Europe. Anti-Jewish riots swept southern Imperial Russia in 1881-1884, after Jews were wrongly blamed for the assassination of Tsar Alexander II. Polls would have showed that "growing numbers" of people rejected the official version of what was causing the black plague and who was responsible for the assassinatino of the Tsar.

And today if you do a google search on mossad you get a wikipedia listing, the mossad homepage, and then page after page of conspiracy theory websites linking jews to terrorism and 911. A growing number of people reject the official story and are looking for the jewish connection.

I don't want to be apart of every "growing movement". Thanks but no thanks.

Ok, well lets get a different perspective: lets take the example of german society during and post the Nazi regime

Leaving aside the question of wether the reichstag fire was a "flase flag", the result was that from 1933 to 1939 the Nazi regime terrified its population with tales of communist infiltrators looking to destory the reich. The people were offered a simple deal: the state would protect them, the state would ensure everyone employment and prosperity, and all that was asked of the people was that they accepted the need to give up their constitutional protections so that the leadership could do this effectively

Over those six years, laws were slowly and deliberately re-written to ensure total power rested with the leadership of the reich. Dissenting voices were demonised and stigmatised with gross characterisations. And yes, the Jews formed part of that tapestry of scapegoatism.

We know that many undesirables were subject to internment once WWII got under way: communists, gypsies, jews, non-aryans...shipped off out of site and out of mind. and we know that their fate, through extermination, starvation and disease was dire indeed

after the war the allies liberated the camps. the local townspeople where forced by the troops to tour the camps and see what had been wrought against the people there. many could not believe what they saw: many commited suicide in desperation and grief. Some knew, but claimed not to have

But whilst the state was commiting those crimes, those same citizens had been declaring that the state could never do such a thing, even if they were aware of the allegations radioed in by counter propoganda. The state could not lie to them, the state would not lie to them. It was only at the end that they had to confront the terrible truth

What then allowed these atrocities to occur?

Why what else but the populace telling themselves that nothing could be wrong for many long years

Should then the German people have had the courage to question? If they had, history tells us 6,000,000 Jews might not have lost their lives. Silence is consent.

Its important to strive not to blindly believe absurdities. However, its equally absurd not to learn the lesons of history

All americans should be asking themselves: "where are the consititutional protections of the bill of rights, now that any american can be detained and tortured without trial simply by being declared enemy combatants?"

The board is set: can one take the risk that is does not simply remain for the war to escalate as the excuse for those powers to be put into play?

[blackcat]

It isn't the Jews who are being held accountable for 9/11 it is Muslims. It is not Jews who are being attacked because of 9/11 it is Muslims. It is not Israel which has been invaded it is Muslim countries and 9/11 gave the western governments the blank cheque to do it. It is not tens of thousands of Jews who have been killed by vengeance seeking mainly US troops it is Muslims. Where are the "critics" defending the innocent Muslims who are being slaughtered and their societies flattened? Where are all the "critics" voices demanding an end to the demonising of Islam? Why do they spend so much time bleating about how Jews are being picked on when it is the Islamic world which is being hit with depleted uranium weapons and having its people killed in their thousands? What is the agenda of these evil bast*rds and why are they allowed here? I have not heard one "critic" speak up for the Muslim victims presumably as they agree with their slaughter based on the preposterous fairy tale of 9/11. They know they are rumbled and they are getting their defences prepared.

[pepik]

Ok, well lets get a different perspective: lets take the example of german society during and post the Nazi regime

Why start there? Lets look at the rise of the Nazi regime. You know, when they were telling everybody about the jewish conspiracy undermining Germany which THE MEDIA was covering up. Those Nazi truthers didn't have any psychological resistance to the "real truth". They wanted an real investigation into who controlled the banks, etc.

[aggle-rithm]

It isn't the Jews who are being held accountable for 9/11 it is Muslims. It is not Jews who are being attacked because of 9/11 it is Muslims. It is not Israel which has been invaded it is Muslim countries and 9/11 gave the western governments the blank cheque to do it. It is not tens of thousands of Jews who have been killed by vengeance seeking mainly US troops it is Muslims. Where are the "critics" defending the innocent Muslims who are being slaughtered and their societies flattened?

I, of course, am appalled by the loss of innocent life in the Middle East. However, you should consider the fact that much of the slaughter is by Sunni Muslims against Shiite Muslims. Sunnis are the majority in the Islamic world, but Shiites are the majority in Iraq. Other middle eastern countries want the Sunnis in control there, and they are doing whatever they can to make sure this happens.

Sure, the US forces created this situation when they toppled the old Sunni regime, but they are not now the ones doing most of the killing.

Where are all the "critics" voices demanding an end to the demonising of Islam?

Who is demonizing Islam, apart from a few rednecks and the Pope?

Why do they spend so much time bleating about how Jews are being picked on when it is the Islamic world which is being hit with depleted uranium weapons and having its people killed in their thousands?

Depleted uranium weapons are used against military targets; they would be overkill against innocent, church-going civilians.

Also, do you think there would be no killing in the Islamic world if western forces weren't there?

What is the agenda of these evil bast*rds and why are they allowed here? I have not heard one "critic" speak up for the Muslim victims presumably as they agree with their slaughter based on the preposterous fairy tale of 9/11. They know they are rumbled and they are getting their defences prepared.

Straw man. No one, but NO ONE is defending the killing of innocent civilians, Muslim or otherwise. To say that there is no evidence that 9/11 is an inside job is NOT the same as saying "we hate Muslims and wish they were dead!"

[aggle-rithm]

This might come as a shock, but when people don't believe in the validity of a POV it loses its power to influence the world: even if you personally hold it as Gospel

True, but no matter how many people believe 2 + 2 = 5, the answer will never stop being 4. The entire world could go on about their lives holding on to the delusion that 2 + 2 = 5, but the consequences of their shared delusion would probably be dire.

Not that this would stop them from believing it.

[aggle-rithm]

Ok, so actually you accept the official story hookline and sinker: your interest in "questioning it" is actually in proving it. if that wasnt the case, you'd be willing and able to display some convergence from it, somewhere

Here is what I believe: A bunch of pissed-off Muslims carried out long-threatened terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. They flew airliners into buildings, killing thousands of people. National defenses were caught off-guard because the attacks were specifically planned to target vulnerable areas in the country's security infrastructure.

If you or any other conspiracy theorist could come up with a competing theory that is even remotely plausible, then I would give it due consideration. I have yet to see such a theory, and I doubt I ever will.

[blackcat]

Who is demonizing Islam, apart from a few rednecks and the Pope?

It is blatant on the mainstream media in Britain and if you do not see it then you do not want to see it. Every day the tv and newspapers are full of stories about Islamic extremism and the threat they pose. People have even been known to gang up to turf swarthy looking men off a plane just because they looked Muslim. I am sick of the constant haranguing of Islam in the media and the invented threats they pose. I do not know of a single incident where Muslims have been responsible for an attack on western civilians but there are countless dead Muslims at the hands of the west. Lie after lie is peddled on our tv screens to justify war against Islamic nations and Iran looks to be next in the sights.

[aggle-rithm]

It is blatant on the mainstream media in Britain and if you do not see it then you do not want to see it. Every day the tv and newspapers are full of stories about Islamic extremism and the threat they pose. People have even been known to gang up to turf swarthy looking men off a plane just because they looked Muslim. I am sick of the constant haranguing of Islam in the media and the invented threats they pose. I do not know of a single incident where Muslims have been responsible for an attack on western civilians but there are countless dead Muslims at the hands of the west. Lie after lie is peddled on our tv screens to justify war against Islamic nations and Iran looks to be next in the sights.

Glad I live in the USA.

[chipmunk stew]

Who is demonizing Islam, apart from a few rednecks and the Pope?

It is blatant on the mainstream media in Britain and if you do not see it then you do not want to see it. Every day the tv and newspapers are full of stories about Islamic extremism and the threat they pose. People have even been known to gang up to turf swarthy looking men off a plane just because they looked Muslim. I am sick of the constant haranguing of Islam in the media and the invented threats they pose. I do not know of a single incident where Muslims have been responsible for an attack on western civilians but there are countless dead Muslims at the hands of the west. Lie after lie is peddled on our tv screens to justify war against Islamic nations and Iran looks to be next in the sights.

Seems to be a local problem there, blackcat. I don't watch TV and I don't read tabloids, but even from what I do catch here and there from those sources, I don't see any broad agenda to demonize Muslims. The Muslims in and around my community and the neighboring city are quite peacefully integrated with the rest of us. We live, work, and recreate comfortably alongside one another. On the fifth anniversary of 9/11, many churches went out of their way to invite local Muslims to share in their special memorial services.

So tell it to your media and your local thugs. The critics corner plays no part in your town's xenophobia.

[pepik]

I do not know of a single incident where Muslims have been responsible for an attack on western civilians

How interesting.

[chek]

Ok, so actually you accept the official story hookline and sinker: your interest in "questioning it" is actually in proving it. if that wasnt the case, you'd be willing and able to display some convergence from it, somewhere

Here is what I believe: A bunch of pissed-off Muslims carried out long-threatened terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. They flew airliners into buildings, killing thousands of people. National defenses were caught off-guard because the attacks were specifically planned to target vulnerable areas in the country's security infrastructure.

If you or any other conspiracy theorist could come up with a competing theory that is even remotely plausible, then I would give it due consideration. I have yet to see such a theory, and I doubt I ever will.

Wait wait wait... I didn't get past the part about the second city (if not the first) of the US and the Pentagon being 'vulnerable areas of the country's security infrastructure' before I fell over laughing.

[John White]

I'd like to know where the secure areas where....???

[John White]

Who is demonizing Islam, apart from a few rednecks and the Pope?

It is blatant on the mainstream media in Britain and if you do not see it then you do not want to see it. Every day the tv and newspapers are full of stories about Islamic extremism and the threat they pose. People have even been known to gang up to turf swarthy looking men off a plane just because they looked Muslim. I am sick of the constant haranguing of Islam in the media and the invented threats they pose. I do not know of a single incident where Muslims have been responsible for an attack on western civilians but there are countless dead Muslims at the hands of the west. Lie after lie is peddled on our tv screens to justify war against Islamic nations and Iran looks to be next in the sights.

Seems to be a local problem there, blackcat. I don't watch TV and I don't read tabloids, but even from what I do catch here and there from those sources, I don't see any broad agenda to demonize Muslims. The Muslims in and around my community and the neighboring city are quite peacefully integrated with the rest of us. We live, work, and recreate comfortably alongside one another. On the fifth anniversary of 9/11, many churches went out of their way to invite local Muslims to share in their special memorial services.

So tell it to your media and your local thugs. The critics corner plays no part in your town's xenophobia.

Thats interesting. The Chief of Metropolitan police is talking about internment over here

I'm a "No TV" guy too btw: though I do read newspapers (I just dont immediately believe 'em)

[aggle-rithm]

Wait wait wait... I didn't get past the part about the second city (if not the first) of the US and the Pentagon being 'vulnerable areas of the country's security infrastructure' before I fell over laughing.

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know what I meant. In case you aren't, let me explain.

By "security infrastructure" I wasn't, of course, referring to physical cities and/or buildings. I was referring to the procedures in place to keep undesirables from entering the country, to keep airliners from being hijacked, and the general state of openness and acceptance in the US that makes it so much different from other countries in the world. (As opposed to, say, China, which addressed the hijacking threat by simply banning people of Middle-Eastern descent from air travel.)

How did the terrorists know these areas were vulnerable? Simple. They had been going in and out of the country for years, living, travelling, and working among us. They knew from experience that they could get away with things in the US that would get them beheaded back home... not because the authorities are incompetent, but because there is a high standard of proof needed before someone could be accused of committing a crime.

They believed that they could smuggle weapons on board without raising suspicion, and they proved that belief correct by successfully doing so in practice runs. They also knew that no one, aside from a few high-level intelligence agents who were being paid to be paranoid, could ever imagine such an act being perpetrated. No one had ever used this modus operandi before, so it was unlikely there would be contingencies for it.

Last but not least, they were dealing with a society where people willingly put themselves in situations that cause them fear just to avoid even a hint of racial profiling. A woman will get on an elevator with a scary-looking black guy, even though he scares her silly, because she doesn't want to offend him! Someone looks at a Middle Eastern person boarding a plane, thinks "terrorist", and instantly FEELS GUILTY that they have stereotyped this person! What could be better for the terrorists?

Of course, you KNOW all this. You're just choosing to disregard it.

[chek]

Wait wait wait... I didn't get past the part about the second city (if not the first) of the US and the Pentagon being 'vulnerable areas of the country's security infrastructure' before I fell over laughing.

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know what I meant. In case you aren't, let me explain.

By "security infrastructure" I wasn't, of course, referring to physical cities and/or buildings. I was referring to the procedures in place to keep undesirables from entering the country, to keep airliners from being hijacked, and the general state of openness and acceptance in the US that makes it so much different from other countries in the world. (As opposed to, say, China, which addressed the hijacking threat by simply banning people of Middle-Eastern descent from air travel.)

How did the terrorists know these areas were vulnerable? Simple. They had been going in and out of the country for years, living, travelling, and working among us. They knew from experience that they could get away with things in the US that would get them beheaded back home... not because the authorities are incompetent, but because there is a high standard of proof needed before someone could be accused of committing a crime.

They believed that they could smuggle weapons on board without raising suspicion, and they proved that belief correct by successfully doing so in practice runs. They also knew that no one, aside from a few high-level intelligence agents who were being paid to be paranoid, could ever imagine such an act being perpetrated. No one had ever used this modus operandi before, so it was unlikely there would be contingencies for it.

Last but not least, they were dealing with a society where people willingly put themselves in situations that cause them fear just to avoid even a hint of racial profiling. A woman will get on an elevator with a scary-looking black guy, even though he scares her silly, because she doesn't want to offend him! Someone looks at a Middle Eastern person boarding a plane, thinks "terrorist", and instantly FEELS GUILTY that they have stereotyped this person! What could be better for the terrorists?

Of course, you KNOW all this. You're just choosing to disregard it.

Mainly because I can't believe you appear to know nothing of Sibel Edmonds, John O'Neill, Able Danger etc. etc. and seem to accept the official story of stunned surprise at face value. I thought you had said a while ago you watched Press for Truth?

[Bushwacker]

Your marked aggression to those questioning your beliefs is typical of the response of believers to heretics, not researchers to questioning.

My aggression is not because my beliefs are questioned but because you and your kind are here to prevent the spread of truth by your repeated lies and distortions. This is completely counter to the aims of this forum. I do not for one moment believe that anyone who has looked into the 9/11 events can possibly believe the drivel served up by your kind but people can be delayed or put off investigating by your sordid tactics. You do not even believe the stuff you spout yourself. Nobody sentient could accept the dross you state as "science" or "expert". You are a blatant liar whose agenda is evil. Why you are tolerated here is the only mystery relating to 9/11.

Thank you for proving my point. You sound exactly like the Catholic priest I once talked to who started off by saying he could not understand how anybody could possibly be an atheist, and moved rapidly on to admitting he simply did not understand how anybody could not be a Catholic.

I can understand people doubting the accepted version of events, what I have real difficulty with is how people can possibly believe that it has been proved beyond doubt to be untrue, when all the evidence they rely on has been countered.

[Bushwacker]

It is typical of the disinformation you spread that you attempt to link the 9/11 truthers with "pissing off" firemen and suggesting we say THEY did Silverstein's dirty work. Distortion and lies again!

I think what you really mean is that the "truthers" like to separate Silverstein's "pull it" remark both from its context and from the person to whom it was addressed, and pretend that he gave an order when in fact he says the FDNY made the decision. The "truthers" just do not like the truth being pointed out.

[aggle-rithm]

Mainly because I can't believe you appear to know nothing of Sibel Edmonds, John O'Neill, Able Danger etc. etc. and seem to accept the official story of stunned surprise at face value. I thought you had said a while ago you watched Press for Truth?

Do you have any evidence that the US government normally takes swift, nimble action whenever someone in the intelligence community warns that something MIGHT happen? Can you cite a few examples of this?

I used to work for IBM, and I can tell you that the larger an organization is, the slower it is to react to changing circumstances. The inertia that has to be overcome is tremendous, and very few people have been able to accomplish real change in the way the US government works. Even presidents have a hard time of it (Bush was supposed to usher in a new age of bi-partisan cooperation, but look how that turned out).

[chek]

Mainly because I can't believe you appear to know nothing of Sibel Edmonds, John O'Neill, Able Danger etc. etc. and seem to accept the official story of stunned surprise at face value. I thought you had said a while ago you watched Press for Truth?

Do you have any evidence that the US government normally takes swift, nimble action whenever someone in the intelligence community warns that something MIGHT happen? Can you cite a few examples of this?

I used to work for IBM, and I can tell you that the larger an organization is, the slower it is to react to changing circumstances. The inertia that has to be overcome is tremendous, and very few people have been able to accomplish real change in the way the US government works. Even presidents have a hard time of it (Bush was supposed to usher in a new age of bi-partisan cooperation, but look how that turned out).

In that case one would surely wonder about the point of having intelligence services since they deal in the business of preventing things that might happen.
I hope the impeachment committee gives your point the consideration it is due when the time comes.

[jsut_peopel]

Thats interesting. The Chief of Metropolitan police is talking about internment over here

You wouldn't care to supply, I don't know, a cite, or perhaps some context?

[John White]

You wouldnt care to, for example, look in News or the 7/7 section?

[jsut_peopel]

You wouldnt care to, for example, look in News or the 7/7 section?

Why would I? I am not allowed to post there after all. It is a simple matter for you to post a cite and the context, here, where I am allowed to comment on it.

[aggle-rithm]

In that case one would surely wonder about the point of having intelligence services since they deal in the business of preventing things that might happen.
I hope the impeachment committee gives your point the consideration it is due when the time comes.

That impeachment committee better get cracking; Bush is only in office for another year or so.

[Bicnarok]

Its many "Threads" to my way of life.

of course it changes peoples life´s if they realise the system they live in is totally corrupt, even though it is obvious. What really suprises is the lengths the people in power actual go to to get thier sad power hungry way.

And if you accept that blood drinking lizards are in involved then it may cause a bit of fear to enter your life.