disinfo agents tactics

[jonronson]

This type of threatening behaviour is outrageous coming from a moderator. In fact I can do without this nonsense, especially on my birthday.

Happy birthday!

Can I suggest that the most likely thing is that neither I nor anybody else on this forum is a "shill".

[Dogsmilk]

Can I suggest that the most likely thing is that neither I nor anybody else on this forum is a "shill".

[joke] Ha! Exactly the kind of thing a shill would say! [/joke]

[Ignatz]

....
I personally feel like I am walking on eggshells with my NPT views these days and feel very pressured in not being able to voice my opinions on the subject without being attacked from every angle. I actually am starting to wish that I did not believe in NPT and it is not right that I should feel like this.
....
(nee Prole Art Threat)

That's because belief in NPT is a serious problem, as opposed to the relatively mild paranoid personality disorder of Mainstream 9/11 CT.
Sorry, but if you genuinely believe that stuff then you need help and support.
Seek help.

[Dogsmilk]

as opposed to the relatively mild paranoid personality disorder of Mainstream 9/11 CT.

Honestly, you reffers consistently fail to do any research whatsoever when it comes to this. I've said this before: Please explain how paranoid personality disorder (DSMIV TR, page 690) can in any way be applied to 'truthers' from an assumption that their beliefs are false. Please also explain how this diagnosis can be determined in the absence of a face-to-face assessment and based purely on forum postings.
I could easily invent cod psychiatric/psychological accounts for terminal refdom, but they'd be totally meaningless.
Sorry Ignatz - being a 'conspiracy theorist' (even an NPT one) is simply not an indicator of mental illness; you're just going to have to live with that.

[Dogsmilk]

Even if it drives you crazy.

[rodin]

This type of threatening behaviour is outrageous coming from a moderator. In fact I can do without this nonsense, especially on my birthday.

Happy birthday!

Can I suggest that the most likely thing is that neither I nor anybody else on this forum is a "shill".

You can suggest it but everyone bar the most naive knows it is not the truth

[Ignatz]

Even if it drives you crazy.

I remain boringly sane. A dose of minor craziness might spice life up a bit, but not to the extent where I'd want to believe that no planes struck the Twin Towers .... and I scanned pixels on grainy photos and vids looking for anomalies.... and went delving for obscure YouTube films doctored and misinterpreted by equally disturbed individuals... and wondered whether Beam weapons or mini-nukes might be worth considering...or agreed the Govt were spraying us with nasty drugs in aeroplane vapour trails... or that lizard aliens from Sirius might represent the truth about The Devil... or that weird burrowing parasites might require buying Vit C from a particular supplier .... or denied basic physics ... or claimed all the concrete at WTC was reduced to powder.. or claimed the bottom of WTC2 should have "caught" and stopped the top part .... or .... or ... (insert your own bizarre belief)

Dog - those things are of the same ilk and are often found together in the CT type. Hence the "diagnosis".

Although I don't believe that the NWO organised 9/11, I do believe GWB is a piece of horsesh#t that used 9/11 to pursue a desired agenda (well, not GWB in fact, but his puppet-masters). That's the difference. The ability to differentiate between fact and fantasy. If that seems judgemental, well tough. Deal with it. Prole/Thought Thingy needs help. Or, at least, time to recover and get a life instead of leaping from one extreme belief to the next.

[Ignatz]

This type of threatening behaviour is outrageous coming from a moderator. In fact I can do without this nonsense, especially on my birthday.

Happy birthday!

Can I suggest that the most likely thing is that neither I nor anybody else on this forum is a "shill".

You can suggest it but everyone bar the most naive knows it is not the truth

A "shill" as I understand it, is a paid insider. Dodgy casinos used to employ them to get poker games going. "One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle"

Where is my * money then ??? I work blasted long hours in a school for carp pay (evidence available). Where is my black hecliopooter?????

Or do some of you folks have a different understanding of the meaning of the word "shill" ? Or don't you give a sh#t about any kind of truth and it's all just some game to you?

[John White]

No. One can voluntarily be a mouthpeice for the most outrageous b*llocks Ignatz: such as the "Offical Conspiracy Theory of 9/11" as written by Phillip Zelicow. One can shill out of defense of one's belief system and it still counts as shilling even without money being involved. Its just silly to go round calling people shills: its a waste of energy to obsess about someone else's problems

[Dogsmilk]

I remain boringly sane. A dose of minor craziness might spice life up a bit, but not to the extent where I'd want to believe that no planes struck the Twin Towers .... and I scanned pixels on grainy photos and vids looking for anomalies.... and went delving for obscure YouTube films doctored and misinterpreted by equally disturbed individuals... and wondered whether Beam weapons or mini-nukes might be worth considering...or agreed the Govt were spraying us with nasty drugs in aeroplane vapour trails... or that lizard aliens from Sirius might represent

the truth about The Devil... or that weird burrowing parasites might require buying Vit C from a particular supplier .... or denied basic physics ... or claimed all the concrete at WTC was reduced to powder.. or claimed the bottom of WTC2 should have "caught" and stopped the top part .... or .... or ... (insert your own bizarre belief)

Dog - those things are of the same ilk and are often found together in the CT type. Hence the "diagnosis".

Although I don't believe that the NWO organised 9/11, I do believe GWB is a piece of horsesh#t that used 9/11 to pursue a desired agenda (well, not GWB in fact, but his puppet-masters). That's the difference. The ability to differentiate between fact and fantasy. If that seems judgemental, well tough. Deal with it. Prole/Thought Thingy needs help. Or, at least, time to recover and get a life instead of leaping from one extreme belief to the next.

Ah, but PPD is a very different beast largely contingent on interpersonal interaction.

The problem is, it depends on your starting point.
For example, your other post disses Rodin for 'delusions of shilldom'. You may regard it at as a bizarre belief. This is because you believe 911 happened as stated in the OT - why on earth would shills be present?
If, however, you believe it is an inside job, it is quite rational to expect 'agents' of the PTB to seek to subvert your attempts to discover the truth of the matter. That sort of behaviour is not unknown.
The further a belief system is from your own POV, the more insane it becomes. My mum has a mate who (this is totally true) believes the Daily Mail is the gospel truth and would never, ever print inaccurate news or opinion. It defines her world. No nonsense. To me, that's totally wacko (why my mum is friends with her is equally mystifying). Nevertheless, however irrational and contrary to available evidence this is, it does not imply pathology. If anything, an inability to empathise with differing viewpoints is arguably more pathological.
I'm yet to be convinced at all of NPT, but TC/PAT cannot be said to be 'unwell' for believing something I agree is (in all likelihood, IMHO) untrue.
Neither does it indicate an inability to fail to sift fantasy from reality; it would if he thought he was on a mission from Judy Wood who communicated with him telepathically; there's a difference between having 'unusual' beliefs based on a ('flawed') interpretation of evidence and intrusive and erroneous personal experiences. Though this gets tricky, as it's hard to find the exact point at which we decide it's 'mad'. Which is why the ability to function socially is a useful benchmark: If someone ran round the shopping centre shouting "There were no planes!...No planes! Can't you seeeeeee???!!!!" randomly, the collapse of social functioning would indicate problems, But this would be no different to someone running round the shopping centre randomly shouting "The truthers are wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Gaaaahhhhggghhh!!!!!!!!!" What's important is, whether you can cope with life. Contrary to popular belief in some quarters, truthers generally lead normal lives.

I know people who would see

I do believe GWB is a piece of horsesh#t that used 9/11 to pursue a desired agenda (well, not GWB in fact, but his puppet-masters).

As total booby babble or at least wild-eyed radical nonsense. I see at as one of the most self evident statements in contemporary politics. It's a mad world.

Incidentally, it strikes me that 911 as a metaphorical inside job is probably the closest to actual common ground between camps. Irrespective of individual truther credentials, I feel it is sometimes overlooked that the appropriation of the tragedy to act as a political tool is a peculiarly Machievellian (sp?) conspiracy in itself.

[John White]

I feel it is sometimes overlooked that the appropriation of the tragedy to act as a political tool is a peculiarly Machievellian (sp?) conspiracy in itself.

Give that man a medal

Some of the critics came close to admitting as such but ultimately couldnt risk breaking ranks. Glaringly obvious though. The system is pawned: now its about that knowledge spreading where it needs to go

[Ignatz]

..

Ah, but PPD is a very different beast largely contingent on interpersonal interaction.

The problem is, it depends on your starting point.
For example, your other post disses Rodin for 'delusions of shilldom'. You may regard it at as a bizarre belief. This is because you believe 911 happened as stated in the OT - why on earth would shills be present?
If, however, you believe it is an inside job, it is quite rational to expect 'agents' of the PTB to seek to subvert your attempts to discover the truth of the matter. That sort of behaviour is not unknown.

Then let Rodin falsify this mistaken belief by popping round mine for a day or two, seeing where I work and so on. Or John White can nip down, he's not far away. This is where the self-delusion takes hold - some of thesee beliefs are falsifiable, but the believer chooses not to take that path. Countless times here I've asked Truthers to provide evidence of some claim or other, but they won't. They appear to prefer not to expose their belief to too much scrutiny. They appear to want to remain ignorant of facts.

The further a belief system is from your own POV, the more insane it becomes. My mum has a mate who (this is totally true) believes the Daily Mail is the gospel truth and would never, ever print inaccurate news or opinion. It defines her world. No nonsense. To me, that's totally wacko (why my mum is friends with her is equally mystifying). Nevertheless, however irrational and contrary to available evidence this is, it does not imply pathology. If anything, an inability to empathise with differing viewpoints is arguably more pathological.

But the real truth doesn't always lie somewhere in the middle of diametrically opposing views, and moderating one's approach in the interests of peace or empathy leads to absurdity. Shall we say that the Earth is shaped like an athletics discus, so as not to offend the Flat-earthers? Shall we agree that half a million Jews were very badly treated in the camps so as to show 'empathy' to the Holocaust deniers? No. Doesn't work.

Prole's NP beliefs cannot be accomodated. They are off-the-scale extreme. His behaviour is also extreme (were you ever treated to one of his abusive PM's?). Either he's having a monumental laugh - of sorts - or needs help. In the same way chemtrail theory cannot be accommodated, ditto alien lizard devils from Sirius and the rest.

[marky 54]

i wish you were right about chemtrails but i dont think that theory is wrong
ive seen it with my own eyes, the only thing i cannot say is if they are spraying us with harmfull chemicals, but they are spraying something.

two examples of what i saw are: plane flying along at what apeared to be the same height as others planes no other planes were leaving a trail
and at this point neither was this plane. a few seconds latter the planes starts to leave an lingering trail for a very long time untill almost out of site it stops leaving a trail, so you can see where the trail started and then ended it wasnt continous and no other planes were leaving trails at all and were flying at a simular height. was something switched on over a certain distance to target a specific area?

the other example: same as the example above, the plane flys along and then starts to leave a trail then dosnt then does then dosnt ect ect untill it begins to become a continous trail which also ended at a point after so long. what kind of trail was that? dashes of trail at the start then a full trail. was the pipe blocked or is that what happens when what ever is coming out starts to work its way through? it certainly was'nt a contrail unless the tempreture changed every few yards or it was only really cold over my area but when you got out of my area the tempreture instantly got warmer and no trail!

in both examples the trails linger there for a very long time anywhere up to 1 hour or more before they dispurse into cloud looking fluffy things.

please by all means explain.... i saw them with my own eyes and no explantion ive heard for them so far can explain them. "not contrails" or do they hang around all day!

[thought criminal]

Prole's NP beliefs cannot be accomodated. They are off-the-scale extreme. His behaviour is also extreme (were you ever treated to one of his abusive PM's?). Either he's having a monumental laugh - of sorts - or needs help. In the same way chemtrail theory cannot be accommodated, ditto alien lizard devils from Sirius and the rest.

Ignatz, you are the one with more serious head problems than I. You have been privy to mountains of evidence and relentless debate and STILL the penny is not dropping. After all the time you have spent on here you continue to remain under a MAJOR DELUSION that 19 hijackers committed 9/11. Seriously, take a good look in the mirror because my NPT has got N O T H I N G on the psychedelic fairytale you accomodate.
The thing is, you keep coming back here for more. Why don't you just f-uck off and get on with your life? We keep coming back here because we believe that exposing the lie is of primary and utmost importance. You, however, are under further delusion that you logging on here and regurgitating nasty NIST lies will somehow keep the LIE in position, that your presence on this board will somehow 'keep things as they are' the only way that you can deal with them. 9/11 Truth is bigger than any of us. It is a U N I V E R S A L portal to T R U T H .


Ignatz, you are suffering from some form of dementia, you need to take a good look at yourself and ask yourself why you keep coming back here over and over again. You are a first class fruit and nutcase and you need to see a psychiatrist, your actions are those of someone who is gonna totally crack when the truth comes out. Go from here, go to your GP and get your head checked. This is exactly what you need because this is what your schizophrenic responses suggest to all of us.

Do it, before it's too late. Good luck. I will remember you in my prayers every night.

[IronSnot]

Hate to say it really, but TC does have a point ignatz.

I don't think you're as convinced as you contend to be.

[Bushwacker]

Hate to say it really, but TC does have a point ignatz.

I don't think you're as convinced as you contend to be.

Actually, I think the boot is on the other foot, the reason that TC is so abusive is because at a very deep level he suspects he is completely wrong.

[IronSnot]

Yes he's definitely wrong about NPT. And as a beamer? and with the Judy Wood debacle it will be interesting to see if he can change or not.

But he's still got a point about ignatz.

[Ignatz]

Not as convinced as I purport to be? You're wrong, but there's no way I can think of to even demonstrate that. Maybe you have other ideas, if so feel free to speak up. If you're ever heading down to the West Country drop me a line and we'll have an amenable pint and a chat about it. No hassle (edit - oops just noticed you're in Oz. Ah well)

State of mind? Well, I have definite obsessive-compulsive tendencies, there's no doubt about that. In 6 months it could be a sudden interest in Morris Dancing that takes up my time (only kidding). Maybe I'll be obsessing about golf for about the 5th time. Meanwhile the days are short and cold, and work has plenty of down-time for internet yakking about 9/11.

Er, that's it.

regards

[Ignatz]

i wish you were right about chemtrails but i dont think that theory is wrong
ive seen it with my own eyes, the only thing i cannot say is if they are spraying us with harmfull chemicals, but they are spraying something.

two examples of what i saw are: plane flying along at what apeared to be the same height as others planes no other planes were leaving a trail
and at this point neither was this plane. a few seconds latter the planes starts to leave an lingering trail for a very long time untill almost out of site it stops leaving a trail, so you can see where the trail started and then ended it wasnt continous and no other planes were leaving trails at all and were flying at a simular height. was something switched on over a certain distance to target a specific area?

the other example: same as the example above, the plane flys along and then starts to leave a trail then dosnt then does then dosnt ect ect untill it begins to become a continous trail which also ended at a point after so long. what kind of trail was that? dashes of trail at the start then a full trail. was the pipe blocked or is that what happens when what ever is coming out starts to work its way through? it certainly was'nt a contrail unless the tempreture changed every few yards or it was only really cold over my area but when you got out of my area the tempreture instantly got warmer and no trail!

in both examples the trails linger there for a very long time anywhere up to 1 hour or more before they dispurse into cloud looking fluffy things.

please by all means explain.... i saw them with my own eyes and no explantion ive heard for them so far can explain them. "not contrails" or do they hang around all day!

Sorry Marky - I missed this.

Questions / suggestions :

What drugs can reasonably be sprayed on the population from 8,000' with any hope of a fair degree of uptake? I mean - if they can convince BA and EasyJet to take part in this program, then why not Tesco's where you would actually be eating the blasted' stuff straight down ??? 99.99% of any chemtrail would miss the target.

Where are all the secret storage tanks on these planes? Who fits them and who fills them? Government agents in every aircraft factory and at every regional airport? Dumb ground-crews who never wonder what that weird stuff in the weird tanks is actually for? (echoes of 9/11 CD here)

Planes climbing are under serious acceleration and will produce more of a contrail than planes cruising or coming in to land (happens with cars on freezing days too)

Planes moving into a freezing zone will "suddenly" display a contrail (unless it's very windy)

Are "chemtrails" visible over open sea and sparsely populated areas? If so, why?

Why does the evil government not just spray chemtrails on mild, clear windy days when they would be so much less conspicuous?

Marky - it's all a load of complete b#llocks, proposed by paranoid-delusional types.

All the best matey

[thought criminal]

Why does the evil government not just spray chemtrails on mild, clear windy days when they would be so much less conspicuous?

Marky - it's all a load of complete b#llocks, proposed by paranoid-delusional types.

All the best matey

[GVideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8879584737[/GVideo]

[marky 54]

i wish you were right about chemtrails but i dont think that theory is wrong
ive seen it with my own eyes, the only thing i cannot say is if they are spraying us with harmfull chemicals, but they are spraying something.

two examples of what i saw are: plane flying along at what apeared to be the same height as others planes no other planes were leaving a trail
and at this point neither was this plane. a few seconds latter the planes starts to leave an lingering trail for a very long time untill almost out of site it stops leaving a trail, so you can see where the trail started and then ended it wasnt continous and no other planes were leaving trails at all and were flying at a simular height. was something switched on over a certain distance to target a specific area?

the other example: same as the example above, the plane flys along and then starts to leave a trail then dosnt then does then dosnt ect ect untill it begins to become a continous trail which also ended at a point after so long. what kind of trail was that? dashes of trail at the start then a full trail. was the pipe blocked or is that what happens when what ever is coming out starts to work its way through? it certainly was'nt a contrail unless the tempreture changed every few yards or it was only really cold over my area but when you got out of my area the tempreture instantly got warmer and no trail!

in both examples the trails linger there for a very long time anywhere up to 1 hour or more before they dispurse into cloud looking fluffy things.

please by all means explain.... i saw them with my own eyes and no explantion ive heard for them so far can explain them. "not contrails" or do they hang around all day!

Sorry Marky - I missed this.

Questions / suggestions :

What drugs can reasonably be sprayed on the population from 8,000' with any hope of a fair degree of uptake? I mean - if they can convince BA and EasyJet to take part in this program, then why not Tesco's where you would actually be eating the *' stuff straight down ??? 99.99% of any chemtrail would miss the target.

Where are all the secret storage tanks on these planes? Who fits them and who fills them? Government agents in every aircraft factory and at every regional airport? Dumb ground-crews who never wonder what that weird stuff in the weird tanks is actually for? (echoes of 9/11 CD here)

Planes climbing are under serious acceleration and will produce more of a contrail than planes cruising or coming in to land (happens with cars on freezing days too)

Planes moving into a freezing zone will "suddenly" display a contrail (unless it's very windy)

Are "chemtrails" visible over open sea and sparsely populated areas? If so, why?

Why does the evil government not just spray chemtrails on mild, clear windy days when they would be so much less conspicuous?

Marky - it's all a load of complete b#llocks, proposed by paranoid-delusional types.

All the best matey

well i must be delusional then(love the way you add that as a reason to explain it) because nothing you have posted even begins to explain what i saw. it was not windy at all and was a clear blue sky and there were plenty of other aircraft to compare to as we dont live to far from the midlands airport.

your asking me lots of questions as if that somehow explains away what i saw. explain how contrails linger around for hours, explain how a plane only leaves a trail over a certain area and then stops, explain why other planes didnt. explain why a certain number of other planes came along 10 mins later and did the same making sure to leave a large x in the sky.

im really open to any explaination but when you cannot answer the questions yourself i fail to see how you can be so sure its not a chemtrail.
nothing so far has explained them. ill give you another chance as i will not be made to think otherwise by being ridiculed by yourself with words like delusional.

so what if you call me delusional i could'nt of seen them? it explains what i saw? do you even know me to come to that conclusion? no its a term you use to explain away something you cannot explain isnt it.

these trails linger around all day and dispurse into a long straight fluffy cloud explain.....

p.s i said in my first post the only thing i cannot say for sure is that they are harmfull chemicals, you totally ignore this and turn my questions into your own as though that explains away these trails. i did not say they were harmfull so why you demand answers from me about how they do it ect ? im not the one saying it is untrue and b*ll*cks you are so please explain if your so sure, if you came to the conclusion its b*ll*cks you should beable to explain exactly what it was or what i was seeing. if you cannot then it is obvious you know nothing and just think its b*ll*cks without even knowing yourself so therefore you should'nt judge people without first finding out the facts or being able to explain what is seen by lots of people around the country. so what was i seeing?

better still explain the video tc linked what is happening in that?

[Ignatz]

"extraordinary theories require extraordinary proof" - Carl Sagan.

You didn't answer my questions about how the chemtrail tanks are fitted, why they're not noticed, and who fills them. Or how the drugs manage to be absorbed into the victims.

Meanwhile :

[Ignatz]

Why does the evil government not just spray chemtrails on mild, clear windy days when they would be so much less conspicuous?

Marky - it's all a load of complete b#llocks, proposed by paranoid-delusional types.

All the best matey

[GVideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8879584737[/GVideo]

Featuring the "anti-gravity rotorless helicopter" ??

I switched off there. Cheers.

I repeat - if you're having a laugh then, well, good luck.
If you're not, then seek help.

[marky 54]

then dont say things are untrue or b*ll*cks if cannot explain it or runaway because you know you cannot explain it. therefore it is not delusion.
its more delusion to claim you know it to be b*ll*cks when you dont really have a clue.

[marky 54]

i dont know what the above picture is suppose to prove. it dosnt show the lenght of the trail or how long it stayed there.

and also rotorless helicopter sounds insane but if you think about it is it?

airoplanes dont have rotors and they can fly as can harrier jumpjets and they take of vertically, although i have not seen or heard of one personally is it real insane to think they could exsist or the technology is there for them? most people would conclude it would depend on the design of the craft the technology is already there.

[thought criminal]

Please take the picture down, Ignatz or reduce it's size. All it is doing is rendering this thread unreadable.

[Ignatz]

and also rotorless helicopter sounds insane but if you think about it is it?

airoplanes dont have rotors and they can fly as can harrier jumpjets and they take of vertically, although i have not seen or heard of one personally is it real insane to think they could exsist or the technology is there for them? most people would conclude it would depend on the design of the craft the technology is already there.

Anti-gravity rotorless helicopter

Please provide a link to anti-gravity technology. I'm keen to learn.

[marky 54]

and also rotorless helicopter sounds insane but if you think about it is it?

airoplanes dont have rotors and they can fly as can harrier jumpjets and they take of vertically, although i have not seen or heard of one personally is it real insane to think they could exsist or the technology is there for them? most people would conclude it would depend on the design of the craft the technology is already there.

Anti-gravity rotorless helicopter

Please provide a link to anti-gravity technology. I'm keen to learn.

ah anti gravity i apologise for not reading that properly i was thinking rotorless only.

how ever this helicopter stuff dose not explain chemtrails or what i saw or what other people see often.

anti gravity however is being researched already and has been for years.
given the fact that our actually technology capabilities are surpressed to the public and we are infact many years more advanced than we actually know about is anti gravity insane? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvsT1sc5xhE

all you need to learn about anti gravity is how it works once that is know its all down to building and design.

[Ignatz]

and also rotorless helicopter sounds insane but if you think about it is it?

airoplanes dont have rotors and they can fly as can harrier jumpjets and they take of vertically, although i have not seen or heard of one personally is it real insane to think they could exsist or the technology is there for them? most people would conclude it would depend on the design of the craft the technology is already there.

Anti-gravity rotorless helicopter

Please provide a link to anti-gravity technology. I'm keen to learn.

ah anti gravity i apologise for not reading that properly i was thinking rotorless only.

how ever this helicopter stuff dose not explain chemtrails or what i saw or what other people see often.

anti gravity however is being researched already and has been for years.
given the fact that our actually technology capabilities are surpressed to the public and we are infact many years more advanced than we actually know about is anti gravity insane? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvsT1sc5xhE

all you need to learn about anti gravity is how it works once that is know its all down to building and design.

Rotorless helicopter ??

How would that work?

[marky 54]

mmmmm do you have any logic?

it would depend on the design primarily i would suggest that is the most important factor(i have not seen one but that dosnt make it insane to think). if your denying engines exsist that can propel a craft forwards and vertically upwards i have to wonder where your logic stands.

ill explain the logic behind the anti- gravity to while im at it watch the clips i linked, you will notice a control panel and a pad underneath the item that is floating.

put the control panel inside the craft and the pad or something simular underneath the craft and id imagine it works in the same way so just add some type of engine for propulsion. the panel controls up down depending on frequency output some type of engine controls forward motion. viola an anti gravity craft that can hover in one spot as long as its wants and as high as the output allows it. add more than one enigine and switch the power between engines depending which direction you want to go. so all that is important is design to maximise control of the craft. regardless of if they exsist or not is it impossible? insane to think? something only a crackpot could come up with?