Eurosocialist & Antifascist: Who's blocking our Rights?

[conspiracy analyst]

English parliament? British parliament? European parliament? Global parliament? It doesn't matter a stuff so long as a bunch of sociopathic war criminals call the real shots and the vast majority of MPs around the world in which ever parliament they sit, sit on their hands and close their eyes, ears amd mouths. Those who refuse to speak out against the lies and bs are collaborators in war crimes and the crimes of 9/11. Unless this is acknowledged discussion of the merits or otherwise of the EU is irrelevant IMO.

Oh and please be repectful and tolerant of each other.

To you it might not matter that nations and countries are being corralled into a centralising force which erases hard won democratic rights and destroys their national economies with decisions made in Brussels, but I consider it important and those that lose their livelihoods as a consequence do as well. That is why national referendums held in France for example showed what the majority feel.
Both the left and right campaigned against the EU in France. What is being presented here is an amalgam of reality. That anyone against the EU is a rabid right winger, a conspiracy nut who sits in dark rooms ad nauseum...

Tolerance is a two way street.
The EU apologist has been rude from his first post when it was not called for.
He then went on to talk about libel. Then he said he would not respond. Then he responds.
So unless you want to ban people expressing their opinion I dont see where the lecture on tolerance comes from. You need to refer it to who has been rude from the beginning and why?

[Rory Winter]

What is being presented here is an amalgam of reality.

"Amalgam of reality": Glad to see that this insulting character who started off the process by accusing me of being of "the Mandelson wing of the Labour Party" (page 5) now admits that what is being presented here is an amalgam, a mixture of elements taken from reality.

That anyone against the EU is a rabid right winger, a conspiracy nut who sits in dark rooms ad nauseum...

So by suggesting that the above is being presented as an amalgam of reality he is admitting that it is, indeed, the reality, albeit a mixture of elements of same! ROFLMAO

I suspect he meant something else but his problems with English (his mother tongue?) led him to state the exact opposite of what he means.

Poetic justice.

People who insult others and then refuse to apologise expose their natures for what they really are: cowards who are inevitably caught in a web of their own making.

[Rory Winter]

Vote UKIP get jailed fascist
UKIPwatch

So, after three and half years of evasion and delay, former UKIP MEP Ashley Mote has finally been jailed for 9 months after being convicted of 21 counts of fraud at Portsmouth Crown Court.

UKIP leader Nigel Farage was quick to respond, stating that he was “disgusted and horrified” by the “leniency” of the sentence. Of course, Mote’s sentence is the worst possible result for UKIP, who were desperately hoping he would get more than one year which would have forced him to resign, with the vacant seat falling to the next UKIP candidate on the list at the 2004 European election.

Incidentally, this verdict should come as a relief to the people of South-East England. Out of the 12 elected UKIP MEPs, Mote has been convicted of benefit fraud while East of England UKIP MEP Tom Wise is also facing allegations of misuse of public money. Besides, given that most UKIP MEPs, with several honourable exceptions, are famed for their idleness, Ashley Mote in prison will probably do more work than a UKIP replacement would.

As it is, in 2008 Mote will return to sit with Jean Marie Le Pen in the neo-fascist Identity, Sovereignty and Tradition group in the European Parliament. The message seems to be 'vote UKIP get jailed fascist'.

LONELY LITTLE UKIP: AGAINST EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE – AND ALMOST ALWAYS LOSERS!
from UKIPwatch

INTRODUCTION

Most rational people would regard it as rather strange to seek election simply to work against the institution one is aiming to join. Nevertheless, in the euphoria following their election to the European Parliament last June [2005] the new UKIP Members set out explicitly to contest if not undermine the workings of the European Parliament – and the European Union more broadly. To what extent have they achieved this objective? How exactly have they set about achieving this rather bizarre goal? By looking at the achievements of UKIP MEPs over the last six months we might be able to discover whether this approach actually has an impact – or whether the millions of votes for UKIP in June 2004 were actually wasted!

The voting record of UKIP MEPs in European Parliament committees has already demonstrated that UKIP MEPs cannot even be bothered to attend and vote in parliamentary committees, where most European law-making work in Parliament starts . In this new report we examine the results of recorded votes in the Parliament as a whole since last July, on a series of important resolutions, ranging from the position of Parliament on anti-Semitism to its support for action to tackle the effects of the Asian Tsunami. Future UKIPwatch.org special reports, to be published shortly, will assess UKIP’s record on EU law-making, and their record of attendance and absenteeism.

What is fascinating is that this report demonstrates that UKIP MEPs do actually sometimes vote in Parliament – but UKIP MEPs are overwhelmingly against everything. And they are almost always losers!

UKIP’S VOTES

It was not until January 2005 – six months into the new Parliament’s term of office - that UKIP MEPs actually managed to vote in favour of something for the first time. This noteworthy event occurred on the European Parliament’s resolution on anti-Semitism and racism. At least this is consistent with the UKIP statement on their website that it is a non-racist party.

But what UKIP votes against is even more illuminating, and more than a little worrying. In January 2005 for example, UKIP Members voted against a resolution supporting the fledgling democracy in Ukraine. Only 18 MEPs out of the entire European Parliament of 732 Members voted against this resolution, the largest single group of opponents being six UKIP MEPs plus their fellow travellers Robert Kilroy-Silk and Ashley Mote.

If they thought about it UKIP’s MEPs might suggest that they are keeping their promise to their electors of not interfering in the affairs of individual countries. The problem is that what they choose not to bother to vote on at all, includes parliamentary resolutions condemning the abuse of human rights, urging free and democratic elections, opposing capital punishment and condemning the trafficking of women and children, in countries such as Zimbabwe, Tibet, Iran and Cambodia. Does UKIP support the suppression of such human rights in these countries? Apparently so – or at least they appear to be of no concern to UKIP’s MEPs.

At other times UKIP votes against or officially abstains. Such was the case with the recent resolution on the Asian Tsunami. The resolution welcomed the generosity of donors, stressed the key priorities for relief agencies, and requested that the Commission be generous with its €200 million emergency reserve. It also called for the establishment of a comprehensive and effective early warning system to be developed without delay in the Indian Ocean and for the international community, led by the UN, to develop an effective and coordinated plan for action in the event of future disasters. UKIP, with their colleagues from the Netherlands, Italy, France and Poland (yes, a member from the infamous League for Polish Families) formally abstained from the vote!

So, what about the issues which affect us all, for example climate change? On a resolution agreed in November 2004 about EU strategy for the Buenos Aires Conference on Climate Change, every UKIP member, plus Kilroy-Silk and Mote, voted against the resolution, along with French and Polish counterparts in their political group. Interestingly, in a follow-up resolution on climate change in January 2005, which examined the outcome of the Buenos Aires conference, UKIP didn't vote with the rest of their group and, instead, chose formally to abstain (with Kilroy-Silk and Mote joining the rest of the Independence and Democracy Group in voting against the resolution). So to start off with UKIP MEPs felt strongly enough to vote against a resolution but they had no opinion on a subsequent and related resolution. Perhaps climate change, like consistency, doesn’t bother UKIP too much!

CONCLUSION

Far from disrupting the work of the European Parliament or the European Union, UKIP are fairly irrelevant politically. Their votes count for little, have overwhelmingly been used negatively, and have changed nothing. However hard they vote against everything and everyone, they are a minority interest often, it appears, even within their own Independence and Democracy Group. And, in the case of the resolutions examined in this report, UKIP have almost always been losers.

[Rory Winter]

It is ironic, isn't it, that all the Eurosceptics and Europhobes on this Forum refuse, when invited, to discuss the European project in a sensible and detailed manner?

Instead, they either resort to meaningless invective or simply make a few generalisations and then condemn the entire thing as a "fascist" organisation or some such!

Perhaps the simple fact is that the whole issue really doesn't interest them except for when it comes to running it down. Perhaps they have never really tried to look at the history and current reality of EU affairs in an objective way and, instead, have relied on the propaganda of the yellow press on which to base their prejudices?

One thing that is and always has been seriously lacking in Britain is a proper discussion of the European Union on an open playing-field, ie outside party politics as well as the reactionary, anti-Europe bias of the mainstream media.

It is the greatest irony that so many on a Forum like this who claim to be concerned at the police states being created as a direct result of 911 and 77, not only fail to attack the very people behind the creation of such oppression (in our case, the Brown Nu Labour government) but, instead, project all their dissatisfaction in the manner in which they have been groomed to do by the fascist, Murdoch Press!

This only reflects the growth of fascist thinking in the British populace.

It is one thing to project prejudice, another entirely to discuss an issue in a civilised way without reducing everything into a slanging-match or to hound people, as I have been by the pack on this forum, for views they objected to and even to be libelled. All this is cheap and nasty stuff.

Now, the challenge is this: are contributors to this forum capable of rising above such and holding a sensible discussion?

[Rory Winter]

Those who complain that the EU is a sprawling, monolith should look at this Map which covers the SCO countries:




Against which the EU looks rather tiny! And this Map does not include countries associated with the SCO (coloured in green), India, Iran, Pakistan, Myanmar and Mongolia!

[Rory Winter]

"The fact is that American [replace with British] corporate-controlled media, and its arms extending deep within the university, promotes general simplification of thought to the point of ignorance of all things foreign. In recent months, we've seen that ignorance shift quite naturally to fear, misunderstanding and contempt for things foreign. This is a generalization, of course. But consider this point: every weekend in countless foreign language newspapers there is no end to translated articles from the foreign and especially American [British] press. Needless to say, the very of idea of publishing translated articles in any of America's [Britain's] major dailies, including the New York Times [Times], is enough to trigger a scoff."

[TonyGosling]

Various igorami persuade themselves to believe criticism of the EU stems from xenophobia. Poppycock!

Without genuine democracy the EU will be run by the biggest corporations and is fascist and sunk.

IN ediited to remove image because it is too large but which can be seen here

http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/window-o ... tution.jpg

Why is it that every state that has had a referendum on the EU has rejected it?

http://www.spectrezine.org/
http://pana.ie/idn/eu-constitution.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/03 ... ip_rights/
http://ukfree.blogspot.com/2006/12/your ... cense.html
http://www.no-fortress-europe.eu/
http://euobserver.com/
etc. etc. etc. etc.

The fact is that American [replace with British] corporate-controlled media, and its arms extending deep within the university, promotes general simplification of thought to the point of ignorance of all things foreign.

[Rory Winter]

igorami

Please explain. Is this some kind of Japanese Eskimo?

Your graphics are impressive as well as excessive (screwing-up this thread ... deliberately?) while your comments are their opposite. They clearly show that you have failed to read anything that we pro-Euers have written above.

I was mistaken to think that your comments above were in some way inviting a sensible discussion. Clearly they were not.

Tell me, during your three-month tenure as Administrator do you intend to make the 911 Forum into an anti-European site or are you simply intending to throw your weight about (as with your block-buster graphics above and as you so often do) on the Forum against people or ideas you don't like? It would be good to know what your intentions are in advance.

And, tell me. What's the point of putting-up a graphic so huge that it's only readable on a large screen? Is this your attempt to drop a bunker-buster on this thread? Why don't you try to argue verbally on this subject instead? Are you capable of doing so? Somehow, I doubt it.

Enjoy your selective vision, Tony Gosling, just as you do with your obsession with Bilderberg and your studious avoidance of the Trilateral Commission.

Trainspotters rule, ok (you'll know what I mean).

[xmasdale]

Why are the physical dimensions of this thread now so wide that I have to scroll left to right to read each line?

[xmasdale]

My twopennuth, for what it's worth, is that neither the EU nor the UK nor the US governments give me the kind of governance I want.

I want false flag operations to be impossible. I want people to be empowered to make them impossible. I want basic human rights for all the world's people. I want equitable sharing of the world's resources. I want meaningful democratic accountability of governance at all levels: local, national, continental and global. I want disarmament and resources thereby released directed into the abolition of poverty, the conservation of life on this planet and decent life for all its people.

I have no confidence in the current institutions of governance at any level to give us that. The profit motive rules and we worship competition rather than sharing and co-operation. If we argue about whether we are more likely to get a desirable kind of governance from Westminster, Brussels, Washington, New York or Edinburgh, we miss the point that some accountable democratic governance is needed at each level. In a global community, we can't IMHO, afford to put our faith in government at one level alone. There is inevitably a web of power and decision-making operating at all levels simultaneously. We cannot afford to allow governance at any level to be unrepresentative and unaccountable. I do not buy the argument that somehow Britain detached from the EU would be better or more accountably governed than at present, nor that Europe would be. There is nothing superior about British so-called democracy.

The biggest error of the Labour Party in my opinion, which was a major factor in my leaving it, was that it renounced its founding commitment that the main means of production and exchange should be controlled by people's elected representatives. It sold its soul to unfettered free-market economics - a laissez faire system which acts mainly in the interests of the owners of capital and neglects human need.

Nuff said

[Rory Winter]

Why are the physical dimensions of this thread now so wide that I have to scroll left to right to read each line?

Thanks to our Administrator who just dropped a block-buster of a graphic onto it. As a journalist he is bound to know the effect that it would have had.

Is this a deliberate attempt to sabotage this thread by discouraging others to read it?

If not, kindly remove the offending graphic, Tony. Or reduce its size.

Is he messing me around just as he did before by shunting threads of mine from pillar to post? It's all so damned petty. What are you trying to prove Tony?

That yours is bigger than mine?

[karlos]

Cynical Sarkozy blocks our EU vote
Tuesday, 13 November 2007
Zionist French President Nicolas Sarkozy has admitted that a referendum on the European "Reform" Treaty in Britain would lead to a no vote.

He says there will be "no referendum in France because that would mean having one in Britain and that would be a danger to Europe."

Speaking at the Conference of Presidents in Strasbourg, Mr Sarkozy said that if the treaty were put to the people of France and Britain, then the treaty would fall.

He said there was a large divide between the governments and the people throughout the Union on this issue.

The President has revealed that not only will the French people not have the chance to vote on the treaty, which they rejected in 2005, but that the government will ratify the treaty in the first few weeks of 2008.

Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, says Mr Sarkozy is "guilty of an utterly cynical political plan."

He said: "Not only does he stop his own people from having a say, but he is also blocking Britain from having the referendum which this government promised."

Mr Farage added: "At least he was honest about one thing. He admits that the British people would say no to the treaty."

The Minister for Europe, Jim Murphy, has been secretly meeting with the Dutch government to discuss ways of avoiding having a referendum.
http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=57

[truthmonger]

Strange how it's the UK (reactionary/fascist - whether old Tories or pseudo-socialist 'New Labour') government which routinely opposes progressive EU legislation - environmental, social, human rights - and demands opt-outs so that it can continue exploiting both people and the environment.

The EP operates in a far more democratic and consensual way than Westminster. It is not plagued by the turf wars of the UK party machines.

As Rory rightly says, the problem lies with the undemocratic balance of powers between the unelected Commission, the extremely powerful Council of Ministers (who typically arrange things quite undemocratically behind closed doors - like the bogus 'liquid explosives' legislation which Brown is now proposing to use to justify stop-and-search, bag checks at train stations etc. - and which the European Parliament voted to review (and would, I am sure, have suspended - if they had the democratic power they should have) and the frustrated Parliament which does its best against appalling odds.

Unlike most of the Europhobes (I suspect) I have actually seen the EP from the inside (on numerous occasions, including several conferences on direct democracy i.e. real people power - supported by many within the EP, in contrast to the almost total lack of interest in this at Westminster and Holyrood).

Of course there is massive pressure on the EU institutions from commercial interests - but the evidence is that it is not as effective as here in the UK.

There is also pressure from grass-roots democracy organisations - such as the German 'More Democracy' which succeeded in securing direct-democratic rights in every federal state of Germany (something we can only envy). The hard work of activists during the Convention on the Future of Europe secured the very first transnational popular right of initiative in the world - the European Citizens' Initiative. More than 20 initiatives have already been launched and several have already collected the million signatures required.

As Britain succumbs to fascism (thought crimes, targeting of the internet), we will be looking with increasing envy across the Channel - and, if we have any sense, appealing to democrats there for help, and perhaps even launching our own European Citizens' Initiatives in the defence of what little democracy we have here.

[Rory Winter]

If not, kindly remove the offending graphic, Tony. Or reduce its size.

Previous comments deleted by ¡venceremos!

[Rory Winter]

Karlos, have you read the article above about the several financial scandals UKIP has been in? Why should anyone trust people like that?

Anyway, your recent article is interesting and I'm sure that Sarkozy is right. At this moment in time the idea of an EU Constitution is unpopular.

What I have been trying to do on this thread, against all odds and despite constant hounding, is to analyse the reason why the EU is unpopular.

I have pointed to the balance of powers in the present EU structure being the main cause of this unpopularity: a wholly unsatisfactory situation where the EU is dominated by what I call a conclave of princelings, the nationally-appointed Council of Ministers, who lay down the law and who the Commission must obey.

The European Parliament, as presently constituted, is toothless and can do no more than comment on the laws instituted by the Council of Ministers through their civil servants in the Commission. Even Nigel Farage acknowledges that in a video you put up on the thread earlier on!

This is where all the draconian stuff is coming from, not the Europarliament which, as Truthmonger indicates, is a truly democratic body.

Most people don't know how the EU works and so they tend to blame it wholesale for things they don't like. That is a fault of national governments which, for their own selfish convenience, do not tell the public the truth. Why should they when the truth is that they have everything their own way in a totally undemocratic structure?

One thing I have identified through all this thread is something very important and something which needs to be emphasised and debated nationally: everyone here, be they Eurosceptic, Europhobic or pro-EU seems to be united in one belief. And that is that the EU as presently constituted is simply unacceptable.

I believe this amounts to nothing less than a popular revolution and, essentially, that's a good thing because it will ram the message home to the Ministers that they can no longer treat Europeans as their serfs, that ordinary folk's needs, whatever they are, need to be heard and recognized.

Where we differ is that whereas some have been convinced (I maintain wrongly and mischievously by an anti-EU, pro-US media, eg Murdoch) that the entire European project is a bad thing those of us who are pro-EU are saying, disagree and call for reforms but please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! The EU can and should be reformed to make it into a more democratic institution.

And the first thing that must be done is to give the Europarliament real teeth as a democratic body with real powers of legislation! All this can be done without threatening the independence of member states but it will require a readjustment of relationships between member-states and the Union in an entirely new form of European democracy.

Such a readjustment is unavoidable in the growth of new power blocs both in Europe and elsewhere on the Planet. My earlier article on the growth of new military/economic power blocs such as NAFTA, the SCO and MERCOSUR argues why this is the case.

[Rory Winter]

Is there anyone on this Forum that wishes to discuss the above in an intelligent manner?

Instead of adopting a Yarboo Sucks! attitude is anyone on the Forum prepared to discuss such an important matter intelligently?

Tony, I see you have removed the problem graphic for which I thank you. You could, of course, have used a photoshop like Irfan to reduce it to fit the page.

But thank you, anyway. I appreciate your gesture and as you will note from my latest posts I am trying to find some sort of common ground between what at first appears to be two opposing sides but which, in reality, may not be quite so polarised as first appears. Leaving aside those who simply reject the EU out of hand, there is clearly a lot of common ground between those who oppose the Constitution (not the EU) and those such as I who are pro-EU.

It all revolves around a case for more democracy which is something the present EU desperately lacks and which I have no doubt is now reflected in unpopular laws. It is that issue which now needs to be discussed at every level both in Britain and on the Continent.

[karlos]

Is there anyone on this Forum that wishes to discuss the above in an intelligent manner?

Instead of adopting a Yarboo Sucks! attitude is anyone on the Forum prepared to discuss such an important matter intelligently?

So how would you describe your conduct?
Because in the opinion of most of us you have been carrying on like an adolescent. Which is why 90% of this topic is occupied by you posting.
Until you answer the very easy question:
What benefit do you think the EU has brought to Britain and/or the rest of the world
Then nobody will take you seriously.
You might be a pensioner but you are writing like a spoilt schoolchild.

Liar, Liar, pants on fire!

[Rory Winter]

Is there anyone on this Forum that wishes to discuss the above in an intelligent manner?

Clearly, in this life, that's never going to be you, is it?

Oh boy, he changes his name after being nailed for libel and abuse and comes back again to pile on yet more abuse under a different name! As usual, he ignores everything I have said above in a spirit of reconciliation to bring back, instead, his nasty energy to the Forum.

Karlos, I have tried to discuss things with you reasonably yet you insist on resorting to this poisonous invective. For which reason I return you to the category of untouchable where, as far as I am concerned, you will now remain.

Rant and rave as you wish. Your rabid abuse will simply be ignored.

[paul wright]

Anyway, the EU is the most unanswerable unelected, undemocratic, New World Orderist Globalist kind of bullcrap ever imagined.
Am I hallucinating anyone here ever imagined it to be positive?

[Rory Winter]

Anyway, the EU is the most unanswerable unelected, undemocratic, New World Orderist Globalist kind of bullcrap ever imagined. Am I hallucinating anyone here ever imagined it to be positive?

Oh, it's that old spectre, dh. Haven't had any abuse from you lately.

DH, Not only have I gone to great lengths to discuss the European issue in detail (a waste of time it seems because it falls on deaf ears) but I am trying to find common ground amongst everyone here. A task which is impossible if people simply continue to use this thread like a urinal for releasing their prejudices.

Pointless discussing anything with people who have this kind of attitude which is clearly based on bigotry than a willingness to see things honestly. This forum seems to be infested with people who see a conspiracy behind every door.

To be expected, I guess.

Keep reading the gutter-press, dh & co!

[karlos]

Oh boy, he changes his name after being nailed for libel and abuse and comes back again to pile on yet more abuse under a different name! As usual, he ignores everything I have said above in a spirit of reconciliation to bring back, instead, his nasty energy to the Forum.

People have suggested that you are only doing this to wind me and everyone else up. They have told me NOT to rise to your bait.
So i wont.
In the spirit of reconciliation - is it true you got your mate 'truthmonger' to post on your behalf? Who is this 'Rory' he speaks of?
I mean it is really sad when you have to stoop to 'rigging' the forum to get someone other than Noel to agree with you. And i am surprised that Noel is still supporting you after you slandered Peter Mandelsohn's charcter.

I look forward to 'truthmongers' next post hopefully he will post more regularly than once every six months.

My twopennuth, for what it's worth

Trust me, it aint worth as much as that.
See you on Monday mate

[Rory Winter]

I have no confidence in the current institutions of governance at any level to give us that. The profit motive rules and we worship competition rather than sharing and co-operation.

Xmasdale, nothing less than a massive revolution will change that. I'm all for that revolution: it can't be soon enough for me.

We live in what is a de facto two-party dictatorship which just keeps returning Mutt or Jeff in succession.

By getting Proportional Representation in Scotland we were able to break the impasse and to get the SNP in despite the utter scandal of gerrymandering by Douglas Alexander from the Nu Labour fascists.

The lack of democracy at Westminster is more than a scandal. It is an insult against the British people and the traitors who perpetuate it should be arrested, hanged drawn and quartered (or at least given penal servitude for life in the Malvinas/Falkands Islands).

[ian neal]

Anyway, the EU is the most unanswerable unelected, undemocratic, New World Orderist Globalist kind of bullcrap ever imagined. Am I hallucinating anyone here ever imagined it to be positive?

Oh, it's that old spectre, dh. Haven't had any abuse from you lately.

.......................

Pointless discussing anything with people who have this kind of attitude which is clearly based on bigotry than a willingness to see things honestly. This forum seems to be infested with people who see a conspiracy behind every door.

........................

iven... dh's post wasn't abusive and his post does not mean he is using this thread as 'a urinal for his prejudices' or that his post is dishonest or bigotted. Is this not a reflection of your own prejudices that sees ALL those who oppose your views as merely bigotted, tabloid reading 'little englanders'?

dh is merely expressing a wide held and I believe correct view that the EU project is primarily the creation of the new world orderist, globalist gangsters. A stepping stone on their path towards their 'new world order' with its centralisation of power. When it comes to discussing the EU you will find many here who do see a hidden hand (and not so hidden hand)shaping events including the latest drive towards an EU constitution.

Just because many do not share your pro-EU views and suspect the same hidden hand that is behind false flag terror (eg 9/11) and the so-called war on terror is also behind much of the EU project, does not mean these people are bigotted or that they see a conspiracy behind EVERY door just that they see a conspiracy or hidden hand behind the EU door.

You say you support revolution. Likewise I support a global people-power 'velvet revolution' to rid us of the corrupt, war-mongering, psychos and their stooges in the media, business and politics. I suggest that if you are trying to find common ground amongst posters here on the future of the EU in the absense of this type of revolution, you are wasting your time.

In other words we can only discuss what forms of government and governance/accountability systems this world needs once there has been a 'truth revolution', once people are fully aware that the OCT of 9/11 and the whole war on terror is bogus, hog-wash. This is especially true of any discussion of EU wide or even world wide government systems.

PS karlos, how is iven 'rigging the forum'? Such suggestions are really not helpful

[karlos]

Hello Ian,

Roger accuses people of libel but himself has libeled UKIP MEPs and might i remind Roger that a UKIP MEP was the first successful person to actualy win libel damages from a messageboard and the poster.

Many of us have tried to have a sensible debate with Roger aka Rory but have in turn been slandered. He has called people illiterate, scum, refugees, fascists, little Englanders, and far worse. He edits many of his posts half a dozen times so moving the goalposts when people reply.
I would say that editing your posts to that extent after others have posted IS rigging the forum. Its like a school teacher changing the questions after the pupils have already taken the exam.
Encouraging others like "truthmonger" to post in your favour is also called rigging a debate.

Roger is refusing to answer very simple questions.
I have asked Roger "what benefits has the eu brought to Britain and/or the rest of the world" several times without reply.
Either this is a debate or this is a monologue.
He is simply posting every pro eu press release or press cutting and therefore replying to his own posts.
Surely people like me are allowed to question the content of these posts?
However every time me or others do question Roger we are hit by a torrent of abuse written in bold.
"Liar, liar, pants on fire" is not what i would describe as a legitimate ADULT debate

[Rory Winter]

iven... dh's post wasn't abusive and his post does not mean he is using this thread as 'a urinal for his prejudices' or that his post is dishonest or bigotted. Is this not a reflection of your own prejudices that sees ALL those who oppose your views as merely bigotted, tabloid reading 'little englanders'?

That was made in the context of all messages between dh and me on several threads.

As far as many who have flamed and trolled this thread in an attempt to derail and intimidate me, yes they have used it as a urinal. More than any other thread, Ian, I have gone to great lengths to answer questions and give analyses.

Not only have the bigots ignored all of that, they continued to reply just in terms of meaningless one-off statements and jibes. That's what I mean by using the thread as a urinal.

that the EU project is primarily the creation of the new world orderist, globalist gangsters

That is a gross generalisation of affairs. Please give hard evidence of this. And I mean that it was always intended as such.

once there has been a 'truth revolution'

What a good idea! How about starting by looking at the EU through unbiased and unbigoted eyes? An impossibility for many here as you suggest.

Many people here seem to think the EU is some kind of Stalinist monolith. That is the shibboleth put about by an anti-European press in this country, particularly by the Murdoch Empire.

"Liar, liar, pants on fire"

This was said after umpteen requests to this person, Conspiracy Analyst, to apologise for libelling me by accusing me of making a financial advantage through the EU. A preposterous lie.

Now, again, I am being lied about by this other one who is taunting me endlessly: "rigging the thread" etc. As a result of his constant nastiness I simply refuse to have anything to do with this chap anymore.

Let's face it Ian, not only is it quite impossible for anyone to discuss this thread on the 911 Forum but if one tries to one is shouted down. What a shameful reputation for a Forum which is ostensibly called the "Truth Movement"!

I suggest that if you are trying to find common ground amongst posters here on the future of the EU in the absense of this type of revolution, you are wasting your time.

You miss my point entirely. What I identified amongst the more reasonable contributions to this thread was a genuine concern about autocratic directives coming from the EU. I linked that to my several comments about the present unacceptable balance of powers within the EU at present suggesting that it was this that is causing so much unrest and hostility to the EU and that this is something in which everyone could find common cause.

But that suggestion was simply swept aside by the bigots who simply continued to denounce the European project out-of-hand. I then asked them what were their alternatives and other than suggestions about a planetary revolution (which I have always supported, by the way) none has been forthcoming.

A 'velvet revolution' seems to suggest that other revolutions are violent. Those are not revolutions, they are insurrections. Where violence has been used the greater part of it always comes from the State not the people, eg Winston Churchill surrounding the Glasgow Town Hall with tanks in the 'twenties after the Red Flag was run up.

[karlos]

Tony Blair visiting George W. Bush while Laura remains far away in Alaska. The Washington "gaydar" is pinging wildly today as British Prime Minister Tony Blair pays a visit to George W. Bush while Laura Bush continues her vacation in Alaska. Condoleezza Rice, who has also been sexually linked to Mr. Bush, is in Asia and may travel once again to the Middle East.

Mrs. Bush was scheduled to deliver a luncheon address to students at an
educational center today. There is more talk in the UK, especially among the gay community, about Blair's bi-sexuality. When he first campaigned for office, Blair received substantial support from the gay community and he once advocated teaching about homosexuality in the public schools, a proposal that faced bitter opposition from fellow Labourites and the Tory opposition.

Bush's idea of "triangulation?"

iVenceremos - i must say you do post some utterly repugnant stuff.
Unless one happens to be a viZ reader that is.

[Rory Winter]

Ian, I should also point out here that people in France and Holland felt quite able to criticize the idea of an EU Constitution without in any way questioning their continued membership of the Union.

This confusion between the two issues has been something deliberately fostered in the UK by people who never wanted us in the EU in the first place. A confusion which is also being fostered here for similar reasons.

[Rory Winter]

What readers should know is that the salacious piece about Bush, Blair and Rice, quoted above, was taken from The Wayne Madsen Report, a point conveniently left out by The Mad Ayatollah as per true to character & previous history of libels.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

July 28, 2006 -- Tony Blair visiting George W. Bush while Laura remains far away in Alaska. The Washington "gaydar" is pinging wildly today as British Prime Minister Tony Blair pays a visit to George W. Bush while Laura Bush continues her vacation in Alaska. Condoleezza Rice, who has also been sexually linked to Mr. Bush, is in Asia and may travel once again to the Middle East ...

It was not written but quoted by me here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GAIALINK/message/5114

[karlos]

More Libels from The Mad Ayatollah

That is another highly racist comment from you.
I will be reporting this to the moderator even if you edit it.


Your post which you claim that you did not write, you simply copied it and pasted it. Well the point is virtually EVERYTHING you post is a copy and paste.
So you clearly found that worthy of pasting which means you endorse what it says.

Tony Blair visiting George W. Bush while Laura remains far away in Alaska. The Washington "gaydar" is pinging wildly today as British Prime Minister Tony Blair pays a visit to George W. Bush while Laura Bush continues her vacation in Alaska. Condoleezza Rice, who has also been sexually linked to Mr. Bush, is in Asia and may travel once again to the Middle East.

Mrs. Bush was scheduled to deliver a luncheon address to students at an
educational center today. There is more talk in the UK, especially among the gay community, about Blair's bi-sexuality. When he first campaigned for office, Blair received substantial support from the gay community and he once advocated teaching about homosexuality in the public schools, a proposal that faced bitter opposition from fellow Labourites and the Tory opposition.

Bush's idea of "triangulation?"

[Rory Winter]

So you clearly found that worthy of pasting which means you endorse what it says

"(The opinions expressed by various authors on this List may not reflect those of the List Owner)"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GAIALINK/

That is another highly racist comment from you.

Dear readers all: despite having consigned the ill-humoured, 'A Leopard doesn't Change its Spots' ex-Stelios to a place where, in my estimation the Sun don't shine, he keeps popping back with his personal fatwah

Now I am (again) being accused of racism for referring to The Mad Ayatollah.

Racism, is it? Would he have preferred The Mad Monk, The Mad Archbishop or Ku-Klux Karlos the Mad Lyncher?

So what makes The Mad Ayatollah racist?

Because it refers to a Muslim cleric rather than a Christian One? Because it shows disrespect to the Prophet (pbuh) as did the notorious Danish cartoons?

Hardly. It's because, while maintaining his right to do so, this joker doesn't like it when others take the p!ss out of him.