9/11, 7/7, Covid-1984 & the War on Freedom

¡venceremos! wrote:

iam not convinced that the e.u or our own govt will ever operate on the principles of true democracy, justice, or equality.

Frazzel, this is a misconception. Compared to Westminster the EU structures remain very open and accountable to any EU citizen. I know this because I have lobbied on issues for EU support where none was forthcoming from Westminster.

This is the Mandelson wing of the Labour Party is it not?

The introduction of the Euro has brought inflation to the region of 20-30% in most continental economies. If introduced into Britain it would bankrupt us.

The thousands of pages of Euro regulations are made by bureacruats sitting in Brussels behind closed doors. National parliaments are undermined or circumvented. Instead of leading to greater democracy it leads to greater centralisation and economic chaos through the displacement of populations people moving from East to West and corporations moving from West to East.

The EU is a realtime current disaster not a paradise in the distance future.
Those who propagate it must either be on its payroll or seek to mistakenly assume it is better than the USA. It is a USA in the making.

This is the Mandelson wing of the Labour Party is it not?

What utter rubbish. I neither support Mandelson or Nu Labour which, actually, I vehemently oppose as anyone who actually bothers to read my above posts (which clearly you have not) will see!

This might be news to you but there are thousands of ordinary citizens (as well as big organisations) which lobby the EU annually, an organisation which in my opinion is light years more open than Westminster. How on earth does that make these lobbyists Mandelsonites or Nu Labour? This is an example of the sheer ignorance and gross bigotry expressed by Europhobes.

Have you read any of my posts with any attention?

The thousands of pages of Euro regulations are made by bureacruats sitting in Brussels behind closed doors. National parliaments are undermined or circumvented.

Because if you had you would take note of what I have gone to some lengths to describe is the problem regarding the present structure of the Europarliament etc.

This is the kind of gross ignorance which is fostered when people choose their source of information as the Scum (reading age: seven) or the Daily Mail. It is also a sign of the high level of misinformation that exists in Britain as a direct result of the inherently anti-European attitude of British governments and a reactionary Mainstream Media (MSM).

There is inflation in Euroland, in Britain and in the USA. That is something that western capitalism shares collectively.

From your pseudonym, it appears you are one of those Walter Mitty-types who are hung-up on conspiracies. What point, therefore, to argue with such fantasists which I know, due to its nature, this kind of Forum attracts like bees to the honeypot?

What would you rather, that we continue in the EU or withdraw and fall victim to the US-led NAFTA which you can be sure is what would happen because the British economy is far too weak for it to go it alone. I suppose you would prefer to throw in your lot with NAFTA because it's led by an English (?) speaking power and like so many you have been sucked into the cultural hegemony of US anti-culture?

The thousands of pages of Euro regulations are made by bureacruats sitting in Brussels behind closed doors.

Not to mention the thousands of pages of UK legislation and "Anti Terrorist" regulations which are made by the Mandarin bureaucrats of Whitehall behind even more tightly-closed doors!

It's strange, isn't it, how in a very Pavlovian* way people have been brain-washed by the MSM into projecting the blame for Britain's oppressive rulers onto 'someone over there' while they appear totally unable to raise even a squeak of protest against the manner in which their British overlords, quite separately and against EU legislation, are turning this country into a fully-blown police state!?

Yes, go on, let's all blame everything onto someone else. Just as we always do. It's what we're so good at doing in this country, isn't it? Never facing up to our responsibility, always finding a scapegoat to blame it on, be they Muslim "terrorists", immigrants or the EU.

Ugh!

___________________

*Pavlov's dogs who were trained to salivate, thinking it was feeding-time, to the sound of a bell

¡venceremos! wrote:
From your pseudonym, it appears you are one of those Walter Mitty-types who are hung-up on conspiracies. What point, therefore, to argue with such fantasists which I know, due to its nature, this kind of Forum attracts like bees to the honeypot?

What would you rather, that we continue in the EU or withdraw and fall victim to the US-led NAFTA which you can be sure is what would happen because the British economy is far too weak for it to go it alone. I suppose you would prefer to throw in your lot with NAFTA because it's led by an English (?) speaking power and like so many you have been sucked into the cultural hegemony of US anti-culture?

The thousands of pages of Euro regulations are made by bureacruats sitting in Brussels behind closed doors.

I wrote the EU is a USA in the making (with a constitution to fit the crime) and that its main purpose is to undermine local and national democracy (in the form of national parliaments).

You then go on to assert I must have a reading age of 7 and previously you alleged the same of Stelios. 7 is what you would like us to be as your points are aimed at that age group.

You then talk about me being hung up on conspiracies which by implication means I should swallow what is on offer and not seek to expose the hidden agenda behind the powers that be.

Whilst you have a left sounding persona, in reality as pointed out already you are an apologist for the EU, nothing more nothing less.

You then go on to assert I must have a reading age of 7

`

Clearly you don't read anything properly. I pointed out that it was the Scum newspaper that had that reading age. Maybe you unconsciously identified with the Scum newspaper because you read it?

You see, that's the problem. People like you don't read anything properly. If you did you wouldn't have said the above. Go back & reread it!

¡venceremos! wrote:

You then go on to assert I must have a reading age of 7

`

Clearly you don't read anything properly. I pointed out that it was the Scum newspaper that had that reading age. Maybe you unconsciously identified with the Scum newspaper because you read it?

You see, that's the problem. People like you don't read anything properly. If you did you wouldn't have said the above. Go back a reread it!

When you say my views are linked to the Sun and the Daily Mail yours are linked to Mandelson.

You have ignored my political points and focused on the reading age.
Old trick. But its in print. I stated the EU is a USA in the making. This is the 3rd time I have repeated this point and you ignore it, deliberately of course.

That democracy instead of being extended is being diluted until it dissapears. By supporting further EU policies for Britain you are part of those who have a NWO hidden agenda. One world currency, one world government.

It may work with 7 year olds. But that is not your audience. Try harder.

You have ignored my political points and focused on the reading age.
Old trick.

You're avoiding the point, you don't read anything properly and then you base your spurious arguments around what you misread! First Stelios, then you. For God's sake, isn't there anyone intelligent or literate on this list?

I stated the EU is a USA in the making. This is the 3rd time I have repeated this point and you ignore it, deliberately of course.

How can you compare the democratic institutions of the EU to the totally undemocratic ones of Bush's USA? That alone is a total travesty of reality! You caricature EU governance with the Commission! That is just unreal!

By supporting further EU policies for Britain you are part of those who have a NWO hidden agenda.

So to fight for a proper access to the Charter of Fundamental Rights is to support an NWO agenda is it?!

How moronic can you get?!

yours are linked to Mandelson.

How are mine linked to Mandelson?! I have no time at all for that Machiavellian prat.

Your arguments are not just contrived, they're completely unreal!

Huh! Talk about casting pearls among swine!

Ok, it's clear what I have to do from now on. I shall present my arguments in baby-book style in very short sentences and large letters. That way, all the Scum and Daily Mail readers may be able to actually hear what I'm saying!

Your arguments are clear there is no need to present them in any other way than the way you do now.

One currency, one government, erasure of national parliaments, an EU police force and army all point to the United States of Europe.

This does not serve any democracy but a centralising force which will focus not on the nation state and its further development but its fragmentation like Yugoslavia creating rich regions and millions of displaced citizens.

This process has already started with the mass migration flows west and the capital migration flows east.

The USA has a Bill of Rights. So what? The EU charter of Fundamental Rights is the same nonsense.

¡venceremos! wrote: How are mine linked to Mandelson?! I have no time at all for that Machiavellian prat.
Huh! Talk about casting pearls among swine!

Your penpal wont be happy you said that. Looks like you just lost yourself your one and only supporter on this forum.

Venceremos - you are calling Greenham Common peace campaigners "infiltrated by MI5" simply because they expelled you, once they realised what a nasty person you were.
You are calling most people on this forum "scum" and "illiterate" simply because only one person has agreed with you, A person who you have now lost.
You have not answered a single question anyone has asked you, nor have you addressed a single issue, yet you say:

Ivenceremos wrote:For God's sake, isn't there anyone intelligent or literate on this list?

I would say your real problem is everyone on this list is far more intelligent than you and you are too stuck in your own doctrines and propaganda, that you are incapable of an intelligent debate.
Pathetic and weak.

One currency, one government, erasure of national parliaments, an EU police force and army all point to the United States of Europe.

I'd much rather put my faith amongst Europeans in a United States of Europe than with the gormless morons who comprise a large part of a fascist USA in which we'd be a vassal state linked to it through NAFTA

The EU charter of Fundamental Rights is the same nonsense

The EU Charter, far from being nonsense, is a major legal document whose contents can be quoted legally through the European Courts and enforced in favour of the common man against the tyranny of government.

Shows how much interest you have in anything European which, to you no doubt, is taboo. How bigoted!

Venceremos - you are calling Greenham Common peace campaigners "infiltrated by MI5" simply because they expelled you, once they realised what a nasty person you were.

Where did I say they expelled me? They did no such thing. Some of the more die-hard feminists insisted on expelling all males from future demos, a stupid thing which I maintain was pushed by agents provocateurs.

If you read what I say, you seem always to misunderstand it, which gives me cause for concern how your mind functions.

You are calling most people on this forum "scum"

Again, you are inventing things in your mind. I referred to The Sun as The Scum, not the people on this list! If they read The Scum then it really doesn't say much for their intelligence. But to call The Sun that name is not to call Forum readers the same!

You have a very strange approach to reading things, 'Stelios'. Anyway look, you can go on ranting and raving if you like. I've got better things to do so I'm away and will leave you to scrap over the leftovers.

¡venceremos! wrote:

One currency, one government, erasure of national parliaments, an EU police force and army all point to the United States of Europe.

I'd much rather put my faith amongst Europeans in a United States of Europe than with the gormless morons who comprise a large part of a fascist USA in which we'd be a vassal state linked to it through NAFTA

The EU charter of Fundamental Rights is the same nonsense

The EU Charter, far from being nonsense, is a major legal document whose contents can be quoted legally through the European Courts and enforced in favour of the common man against the tyranny of government.

Shows how much interest you have in anything European which, to you no doubt, is taboo. How bigoted!

Even trade unionists which you allege to support are against the EU.
But then again if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...

BELGIUM

"No to the break up of our rights and the country!"

Every day, Belgium sinks deeper into crisis. Three months after the
June 10 legislative elections - while the leaders of the victorious
political parties try, in vain, to form a "coalition government" -
this crisis threatens to break up Belgium itself and all the federal
social conquests, particularly Social Security.

Behind what the international press presents as a "communitarian"
conflict, there is in reality all the policies of social destruction
that the European Union and the capitalists defend. The intervention
of the working class united in and with its organizations is the only
force, in these conditions, capable of offering a way out. It is with
this perspective that the following appeal was launched by 10 Flemish
labor activists and 10 Walloons labor activists.

To the workers, to the youth, to the trade unionists:

The moment is serious. What is at stake in the current political
crisis are our social rights!

What force can end this march to dislocation and the destruction of
our rights?

>From the north to the south of the country, they are in the process of

conditioning the people for the break-up of Belgium.

What is the goal of all this?

All of the declarations of the bosses call for a radical undermining
of the rights of workers. Since the beginning of the "negotiations"
following the June 10 elections, there have only been violently anti-
social projects on the table. These projects come as much from the
partisans of the regionalization and separatism as from those who
claim to want to maintain an important federal power.

The president of the FGTB, Rudy De Leeuw, was right to say: "Who will
benefit from a big communitarian reform? I am still waiting for
somebody to show me how such a reform would serve the interests of the
workers. If they break up Social Security, poverty will increase in
Walloons; but in Flanders, too, the gap between the rich and the poor
will rise. I do not see any advantage for the Flemish economy. Most of
the Flemish proposals for a state reform come from the Flemish
employers. These folks rarely mobilize for social improvements. When
the VOKA calls for regionalization of unemployment benefits and pre-
pensions, you can well imagine what it is going to
collect." (September 4, 2007)

Careful, we're in danger! Wages, collective bargaining contracts, the
right to work, and Social Security are threatened. That is why it is
the duty of the leaders of the SP and the SP.A to refuse to associate
with a "reform of the State" that would go against the objectives of
the FGTB. The union would benefit greatly from bringing together the
leaders of these two parties to demand that they pronounce together,
clearly and publicly, this perspective.

Neither the plague nor cholera

Today, those who prepare for the break-up of Belgium want to make us
choose between the plague and cholera: Either a governmental agreement
to break up our social rights, while pretending to "save Belgium" (for
a short period: the country would not survive a long time if the
federal social rights are dismantled) or the immediate break-up of
Belgium, with the effect of directly getting rid of our social rights
guaranteed nationally.

That we have reached this point is the result of the policies of
social regression dictated by the European Union and the European
Central Bank, which is subordinate to the American financial markets
in crisis, as the recent news demonstrates.

All the parties willing to "negotiate" are situated on the respect of
the demands of the European Union. Already, the essence of the laws
voted on in Belgium are only the transcription of European directives.

For years, we have seen a serious social retreat in Belgium, as in all
of Europe. Today, the European Union, as a relay for the financial
markets, wants the governments to go even further and get rid of all
the social conquests. But this objective comes up against the Belgian
working class.

Of course, the workers have suffered blows, but they have not lost
their strength - close to 3 million workers are unionized in our
country. That is why the current political offensive aims to dismantle
the working class to more effectively dismantle its rights.

In our opinion, the same people who want to break up the unity of the
Belgian working-class and its conquests are the same people who,
throughout Europe, threaten the existence of nations, which are the
framework in which all the collective and social conquests have been
won. Are we exaggerating?

Asked by Le Soir (August 14), a researcher of the Institute of
International and Strategic Relations (Paris) responds to the
question: "Why does the European Union not react against these
separatist drives?"

The researcher responded: "The European Union has a rather ambiguous
attitude. This movement of ethnic secession does not really handicap a
liberal Europe, which is nothing other than a big market. It does not
see this as an important obstacle. Š At the end of the day, the result
will be the break-up of social and national cohesion."

Bart de Wever, of the NVA, confirms this analysis by responding to a
question of the Telemoustique weekly (September 5), which asked him:
"Do you want to see Belgium disappear?"

De Wever responded: "In my opinion, it has become superfluous in our
European context, without which I would not support the autonomy of
Flanders. Belgium will dissolve very slowly, like a pill in water,
because the era of borders is past and because it is wedged between
the power of regions calling for autonomy and the supranational
structures in Europe. Now that the Euro has replaced the Belgian
franc, there is no more natural barrier to this natural evolution."

What force can end this drive to dislocation, the destruction of our
most essential social rights?

We note that the leadership of the FGTB clearly has taken a position
in defense of the federal social rights. The leadership of the CSC has
been led to do the same.

The very existence of the FGTB as a national union federation,
bringing together into one organization the workers of Flanders,
Walloons, and Brussels, incarnating the unity of the working class of
Belgium, is a conquest.

In these conditions and because the moment is extremely serious, we
feel that the leadership of the FGTB has a major responsibility. It is
up to it call for a mass mobilization to prevent a disaster.

We address all the leaders of the FGTB to say: Call on the workers to
take to the streets, call for a huge national demonstration in
Brussels, uniting the workers of Flanders, Walloons, and Brussels (and
propose that the CSC join), around the demands:

- No to the break-up of our social rights and the country!
- Defend the unity of Belgian working class!
- Maintain all the federal social conquests!

As the FGTB demands in its May 2007 memorandum:
- The collective labor contracts should remain national!
- The same right to work should cover all the workers of the country!
- Social Security, with its unemployment, health, and family aid, must
remain federal!

There can be no doubt the workers and youth would respond massively to
such an appeal. This is the only path to stop this march to
dislocation and the destruction of our social rights.

First signers:

Eddy Baert, délégué ACOD Iris ;
Micheline Bruyninckx, déléguée BBTK (Dexia) ;
Jeanine CHAINEUX, vice-présidente CGSP-administration régionale
Verviers ;
Philippe de Menten, membre du comité exécutif de la CGSP enseignement
Bruxelles et du bureau exécutif communautaire de la CGSP
enseignement ;
Fayçal Draïdi, délégué syndical SETCa ;
Yves Eeckman, militant SETCa ;
Marc Goblet, président de la régionale FGTB de Liège-Huy-Waremme ;
Geert Haverbeke, délégué BBTK Dexia ;
Rudy Janssens, secrétaire fédéral CGSP ALR, région de Bruxelles
capitale (à titre personnel) ;
Philippe Larsimont, ex-délégué SETCa métal Liège ;
Raymonde LeLepvrier, secrétaire régionale SETCa Namur ;
Dirk Lodewijk, employé ABVV Liedekerke, adjoint au maire de Liedekerke
(sp.a) ;
Jan MARTENS, secrétaire BBTK Antwerpen ;
Serge Monsieur, vice-président CGSP Vivaqua ;
Jos Muris, délégué BBTK bij Veolia ;
Bernadette Mussche, secrétaire BBTK-SETCa BHV ;
Olivier PALMANS, délégué principal CGSP Télécom-Aviation ;
Antoine Ruggieri, président de la commission pensionnés-prépensionnés
métal FGTB Liège, ex-permanent FGTB Cockerill ;
Henri-Jean Ruttiens, permanent syndical SETCa BHV ;
Rik Steeland, membre de BBTK Kortrijk ;
Francis Stevens, secrétaire adjoint BBTK BHV ;
Michel Vandermaesen, délégué BBTK Citroën ;
Jan Vanderpoorten, délégué principal ABVV/FGTB Audi ;
Hubert Van der Voorde, délégué BBTK Dexia.

This appeal was launched by the Committee for Unity

CONTACT: Yves Eeckman - Rue Georges Raeymaekers, 13, 1030 Bruxelles -
yves.eeck...@skynet.be

Even trade unionists which you allege to support are against the EU.
But then again if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...

What absolute nonsense. I am a pensioner who happens to be an enthusiastic supporter of the European project for the last 45 years. Probably longer than you've lived on this Planet!

I lobbied in the 'nineties to protect the dolphins of the Moray Firth and on the wider issue of marine, coastal pollution around the UK and the need to enforce EU directives to get the UK government to clear it up. I made not a cent out of it. On the contrary, I spent my own money and expended my own energy on behalf of the dolphins I love.

You'd best be careful my friend. Your comments are now bordering on libel. Moderators please take note.

You seem to have some strange black-and-white idea that anyone who supports the EU must automatically be either in with Peter Mandelson or on its gravy train. Very odd indeed. In your narrow-minded perception of things there doesn't appear to be room for ordinary folk like me who happen to have seen the carnage of WWII and decided that the European countries must unite and never go to war against each other again.

You selectively pick on the Belgian unions. Why not try the Irish Trades Unions? The point being that different Trades Unions have different views. In the same way that supporters of the EU don't all have to support a monolith ('monolith', do I have to explain what that is?) which doesn't exist in the real world but only in the minds of phobic types.

Having read this article above (to which you fail to give us the source link, bad practice) the notable thing about it is that it makes few specific criticisms about the EU talking about "the EU and capitalists." Well, of course, the EU is a capitalist, social democratic, organization existing in a capitalist world. Nobody disputes that and I have pointed that out before but so blinkered are you you would have missed it.

It talks vaguely about the effect of the EU market and Euro "breaking up social cohesion". European countries have, throughout history, experienced economic and social changes (then through war and invasion) where settlers have changed the social complexion of countries. Britain's history is littered with such changes!

The EU is a huge project and, in the capitalist world which we all live in, it is bound to create new influxes of population. This is the reality which immigrant-haters had better get used to. Within the EU such influxes are happening but even from outside it. This is just another developing chapter of the history of humanity on this planet.

The other thing this Belgian Press Release dwells upon is the break-up of Belgium which, taking a doctrinaire view on things, blames that break-up on the EU and the Euro. Whereas the reality is much more complex than that! Belgium has a long history of problems with separatism. But then you don't like complex issues, do you?

When I talk about the EU it is within the parameters (do I need to explain that word too?) of a capitalist organization. And within those parameters the EU is still basically social democratic and therefore more in favour of the common man than the nakedly Neoconservative policies touted by the Bush cabal and the Blair/Brownites who have worked overtime to introduce same into the EU.

Now. Is all that clear or do I have to repeat it in a more simplified form?

I have written exhaustively above of the open-ness and democracy of EU institutions in comparison to the medieval attitudes in Westminster and Whitehall. Being not only narrow-minded but prejudiced you ignore all of this and refuse to get drawn into a discussion about same.

That should show intelligent readers where you are coming from. All I can say is I would live in dread in the unlikely event of people like you and 'Stelios' gaining even a smidgeon of real power in this country!

¡venceremos! wrote:

You have a very strange approach to reading things, 'Stelios'. Anyway look, you can go on ranting and raving if you like. I've got better things to do so I'm away and will leave you to scrap over the leftovers.

I get the feeling you'll be back.

I get the feeling you'll be back.

Yes, but not to play childish games with 'Stelios'. I just can't and won't deal with a person who behaves like that.

His behaviour is being observed and noted by others who are far more influential than I on this Forum.

¡venceremos! wrote: His behaviour is being observed and noted by others who are far more influential than I on this Forum.

You sound like a typical ex Stasi informer. Are you sure you werent an ex KGB deep cover operative in a past life?
Being observed - how ridiculous you sound.

Why dont you answer what points my colleagues have made? Instead of calling me 'childish' argue your platform properly.
Most UK trades unions OPPOSE eu membership, that is a fact. So your claim to the contrary is blatantly false.

Note to readers: I would caution you not to believe a word Mr Karl Khan ('Stelios') utters herein. Not only does he have serious literacy problems with being unable to properly read or comprehend the written page (a necessity on Forums) but he has a known record of making libellous statements which then have had to be removed from this forum.

This rather unsavoury person only seems to understand abuse and libel. His calculated, McCarthyite methods of attempting to intimidate other Forum members and thus derail their threads is, I assure you, being observed. He will be given enough rope to hang himself with.

Meantime, I would advise the rest on this Forum that he is already skating on very thin ice and of the dangers of associating with his abuse and sabotage.

¡venceremos! wrote:

Even trade unionists which you allege to support are against the EU.
But then again if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...

What absolute nonsense. I am a pensioner who happens to be an enthusiastic supporter of the European project for the last 45 years. Probably longer than you've lived on this Planet!

I lobbied in the 'nineties to protect the dolphins of the Moray Firth and on the wider issue of marine, coastal pollution around the UK and the need to enforce EU directives to get the UK government to clear it up. I made not a cent out of it. On the contrary, I spent my own money and expended my own energy on behalf of the dolphins I love.

You'd best be careful my friend. Your comments are now bordering on libel. Moderators please take note.

You seem to have some strange black-and-white idea that anyone who supports the EU must automatically be either in with Peter Mandelson or on its gravy train. Very odd indeed. In your narrow-minded perception of things there doesn't appear to be room for ordinary folk like me who happen to have seen the carnage of WWII and decided that the European countries must unite and never go to war against each other again.

You selectively pick on the Belgian unions. Why not try the Irish Trades Unions? The point being that different Trades Unions have different views. In the same way that supporters of the EU don't all have to support a monolith ('monolith', do I have to explain what that is?) which doesn't exist in the real world but only in the minds of phobic types.

Having read this article above (to which you fail to give us the source link, bad practice) the notable thing about it is that it makes few specific criticisms about the EU talking about "the EU and capitalists." Well, of course, the EU is a capitalist, social democratic, organization existing in a capitalist world. Nobody disputes that and I have pointed that out before but so blinkered are you you would have missed it.

It talks vaguely about the effect of the EU market and Euro "breaking up social cohesion". European countries have, throughout history, experienced economic and social changes (then through war and invasion) where settlers have changed the social complexion of countries. Britain's history is littered with such changes!

The EU is a huge project and, in the capitalist world which we all live in, it is bound to create new influxes of population. This is the reality which immigrant-haters had better get used to. Within the EU such influxes are happening but even from outside it. This is just another developing chapter of the history of humanity on this planet.

The other thing this Belgian Press Release dwells upon is the break-up of Belgium which, taking a doctrinaire view on things, blames that break-up on the EU and the Euro. Whereas the reality is much more complex than that! Belgium has a long history of problems with separatism. But then you don't like complex issues, do you?

When I talk about the EU it is within the parameters (do I need to explain that word too?) of a capitalist organization. And within those parameters the EU is still basically social democratic and therefore more in favour of the common man than the nakedly Neoconservative policies touted by the Bush cabal and the Blair/Brownites who have worked overtime to introduce same into the EU.

Now. Is all that clear or do I have to repeat it in a more simplified form?

I have written exhaustively above of the open-ness and democracy of EU institutions in comparison to the medieval attitudes in Westminster and Whitehall. Being not only narrow-minded but prejudiced you ignore all of this and refuse to get drawn into a discussion about same.

That should show intelligent readers where you are coming from. All I can say is I would live in dread in the unlikely event of people like you and 'Stelios' gaining even a smidgeon of real power in this country!

Your main argument is that the EU project brings about change and ...more democracy. You dont say how a centralised currency which brings the industrial north with the agricultural south Spain, Portugal, Greece into one big economic mess going to work when we don't have centralised political structures?

The last great imperialist attempt at unifying Europe was under Hitler, when we also had a single currency (apart from the UK like now) and mass migration. A resistance movement was created against it. Europe is an old continent with many nations with many different histories and languages. Twice it has led and caused world wars. Enforced unification, from above by dictat without the cooperation of the nations involved as evidenced by the fact that majority populations voted against the EU constitution only show you have actually nothing to do with democracy but a NWO agenda.

Europe under NATO has gone to war against a European country. Your argument about Peace through NATO hogwash is just that. Its the excuse the elites use to disenfrachise millions from their basic democratic rights.

I wont take the bait and argue how intelligent you are or whether my political positions lead to libel but I will say that you are unable to actually argue your positions without threats and petty insults.

The last great imperialist attempt at unifying Europe was under Hitler, when we also had a single currency (apart from the UK like now) and mass migration. A resistance movement was created against it. Europe is an old continent with many nations with many different histories and languages. Twice it has led and caused world wars.

Your analogy is false. Hitler's was an occupation led by aggression and invasion whereas the European Union was created through the wishes of national governments and their people for a more unified structure. Due to imperialist attitudes of superiority inherited from its past Britain has never been an enthusiastic player in the European project.

The Resistance Movement was created against Hitler's enforced occupation, an act of force. There never was a similar act of force in the creation of the European Union. Nor will there ever be.

only show you have actually nothing to do with democracy but a NWO agenda

Anyone who has read my Mailing List, Gaialink (created in 1999) or my blog, Chimes of Freedom (created in 2005 in protest against the 77 false flag events) will see how I have consistently condemned the NWO.

Again, you appear to be unable to see the EU as anything but a monolithic organisation infested with NWO robots. Which is all nonsense. I started this thread by proclaiming my Eurosocialism and Antifascism and my support of the European Left. Are you seriously suggesting that such people are NWO stooges?

I found your nasty little comment implying that I was somehow taking advantage of an EU "gravy-train" not only offensive but libellous. You should apologise for that publicly-made libel.

Your argument about Peace through NATO hogwash is just that. Its the excuse the elites use to disenfrachise millions from their basic democratic rights.

Again, your fevered imagination is creating spectres where there are none. After campaigning against NATO for nearly 30 years when and where have I ever said the slightest good thing about that US-trojan? Again, anyone who reads my Mailing List and/or blog will see how I vehemently oppose NATO!

Tell me, wherever did you see me once support NATO? Tell me!

You see, that's the trouble with you. You simply pull things out of a hat, things that were never said, and attribute them to those you oppose! It's just preposterous! And then you claim to argue intelligibly about subjects, making comments that have more in common with Sun one-liners than sense.

I'm willingly to bet money that you are a regular Sun-reader like so many others in this country. No wonder there's so much deliberately fostered ignorance, ill-concealed racism and bigotry around!

or whether my political positions lead to libel

It's not your political positions. It's what you have inferred publicly about me! Don't you understand the difference about expressing an opinion based on perception and making a bald mis-statement about issues, like imputing bribery, 'getting on a gravy-train'?

and petty insults

Clearly you have reading problems because you make the most preposterous accusations ('gravy train', 'supporting NATO' and more). Clearly you make uninformed assertions about the EU which very much suggest bigotry. I could go on ... suffice to say that every thing I say I do it from carefully reading what you say and then expressing my reactions. But you do more than that. You make bald-faced lies!

I have challenged you on your libel. I have challenged you on your false imputations that I support NATO. Now, please, address those challenges!

¡venceremos! wrote:

The last great imperialist attempt at unifying Europe was under Hitler, when we also had a single currency (apart from the UK like now) and mass migration. A resistance movement was created against it. Europe is an old continent with many nations with many different histories and languages. Twice it has led and caused world wars.

Your analogy is false. Hitler's was an occupation led by aggression and invasion whereas the European Union was created through the wishes of national governments and their people for a more unified structure. Due to imperialist attitudes of superiority inherited from its past Britain has never been an enthusiastic player in the European project.

The Resistance Movement was created against Hitler's enforced occupation, an act of force. There never was a similar act of force in the creation of the European Union. Nor will there ever be.

only show you have actually nothing to do with democracy but a NWO agenda

Anyone who has read my Mailing List, Gaialink (created in 1999) or my blog, Chimes of Freedom (created in 2005 in protest against the 77 false flag events) will see how I have consistently condemned the NWO.

Again, you appear to be unable to see the EU as anything but a monolithic organisation infested with NWO robots. Which is all nonsense. I started this thread by proclaiming my Eurosocialism and Antifascism and my support of the European Left. Are you seriously suggesting that such people are NWO stooges?

I found your nasty little comment implying that I was somehow taking advantage of an EU "gravy-train" not only offensive but libellous. You should apologise for that libel.

You called me a fantasist, a Walter Mitty type, you took the piss out of my title Conspiracy Analyst when I had not even mentioned yours, you started now you allege I am being offensive. You need your head examined. Don't cry wolf after abusing your position and don;t expect flowers in response when you are rude. You only get back what you deserve nothing more nothing less. You then alleged I am a Sun reader or that I lack basic intelligence as if posting an opinion or a view requires a Mickey Mouse university degree.

I am not interested in what people post about themselves or what they say they stand for. It has no meaning. Its who they support and what they do in practice that counts.

You then say Europe is created by people and their wishes. The people turned down the Euro constitution. They didn't vote for it. They have got it through the backdoor. If you dont know the difference between a national referendum, a majority in voting and the loss of the veto in national decision making, then you dont know the basics of rudimentary democracy. Saving whales or was it dolphins is probably what you are good at. Stick to that. Stop selling the EU as if our future depended on it. It doesn't.

Address yourself to the challenges I have made. Prove your unfounded accusations against me!

And what are they but of a Walter Mitty who pulls things out of a fevered, conspiracy-ridden imagination and accuses others of things they have never done!?

You have lied about me in public, suggesting I took bribes from the EU, when what I did was not only a public service for the communities of the Moray Firth I love but on behalf of all the beautiful whales and dolphins that make their home here!

And you dare to suggest that I did it for money! Can you understand that there are people in this world who happily make sacrifices for things they love and which have nothing to do with money? That there are humans who possess an eternal vision which goes very far beyond this world?

You have lied about me suggesting I support NATO when my track-record clearly proves the opposite! Why should anyone believe anything said by a pathological liar?

Will you now apologise for lying about me or not? And will you answer the challenges I make for you, now, to prove your allegations?

¡venceremos! - are you Victor Meldrew (or Mildew) in disguise?
Every single person who disagrees with you, you enter into a slanging match with. You have not answered a single question nor have you countered a single point of issue. You have been rude about everyone who opposes your extremist views.
And now you start threatening your opponents with libel which you know is probably beyond the means of your state pension.

Instead of being rude to everyone else and instead of editing your posts repeatedly just for once answer the questions and address the issues.

Every reader of this 'debate' can judge for themselves that other than your rudeness and empty threats you have not given one single example of what benefits the EU brings to the UK where you actually reside. Nor have you given one single example of how the EU benefits the rest of the world.

Ivenceremos wrote:I'm willingly to bet money that you are a regular Sun-reader like so many others in this country. No wonder there's so much deliberately fostered ignorance, ill-concealed racism and bigotry around!

I assume you were never a school teacher in this country. Talk about pot calling the kettle black. You have the cheek to call other people illiterate.
And you also take some beating in terms of bigotry and racism. So i will wager you are a typical VIZ reader. You sound like you are a VIZ reader.
And after editing your post SIX times you still didnt manage to write it in ENGLISH.

'Conspiracy Analyst', I await your replies to my challenge. For once, prove your allegations or stop making false allegations in public.

Quant à ce autre type inavouable, I have nothing more to say!

Britain accused of scuppering EU's renewable energy plan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 69,00.html

· UK officials support permit trading plan for members
· Ministers dodging target, say environmental groups

Ashley Seager and David Gow, Brussels
Saturday October 13, 2007
The Guardian

Britain was accused yesterday of trying to wreck planned EU legislation to enforce a binding target of using renewable power to produce 20% of Europe's energy by 2020.

The ambitious target, agreed by Tony Blair last spring, is challenging for Britain since this country produces only 2% of its power from non-fossil fuel sources such as wind and solar.

British officials attending a meeting in Brussels yesterday supported a system of mandatory trading permits between countries so that member countries that did not meet the renewables target would be able to buy in permits from other countries that had surpassed it.

This would enable Britain to get to, say, 10% of its energy from renewables by 2020 and buy in permits from countries, perhaps outside the EU, to cover the rest.

While there is much debate about the best way forward on renewables, groups such as Friends of the Earth and the WWF suspect that Britain, endowed with wind and wave resources, is trying to wriggle out of its European commitments.

The Guardian revealed an internal government document two months ago which showed officials had advised ministers that the UK had no chance of achieving the 20% renewables target and should work to undermine it at a European level or try to use "statistical interpretations" to get round it.

William Rickett, an official at the Department for Business and Enterprise whose team is believed to have prepared the paper for ministers, represented Britain at yesterday's talks.

Campaigners say an EU trading system would destroy the successful "feed-in tariff" schemes operating in countries including Germany and Spain. Such schemes, which are rapidly being adopted by other EU countries, involve paying micro generators above-market prices for electricity they feed into the grid.

Robin Webster, of Friends of the Earth, said: "Government talked a good talk on climate change but it's vital they demonstrate genuine leadership when it comes to delivery. The target is ambitious but it's only by being brave that the government can really tackle climate change. The can't-do attitude to renewable energy is deeply worrying and a self-fulfilling prophecy."

The groups argue that a trading system will discourage EU member countries from developing renewable energy sources at a national level if they can buy green electricity from others.

It would lead to an unbalanced concentration of renewable energy production in countries which have already managed to successfully produce renewable electricity cost-effectively. The price of renewable energy would rise, whereas it is falling in countries that have feed-in tariffs.

Critics accuse Gordon Brown and his senior officials, with France and Poland, of trying to scupper legislation which is due to be unveiled by the commission in December. EU energy commissioner Andris Piebalgs confirmed he and his team were working on a scheme to trade renewable certificates.

Germany, Europe's leading producer of renewable energy, said the scheme would put at risk its feed-in tariff which is credited with giving the country 10 times the installed wind power and 200 times the solar power that Britain has. Mr Piebalgs and his officials insist that the two schemes are compatible.

But Oliver Schäfer, policy director of the European Renewable Energy Council (EREC), said they would end up destroying each other. "[The British] don't want an ambitious target whereas they have a huge potential in wind, for instance, and their main goal is to kill the whole legislative package while paying lip-service to the goals."

But Mr Piebalgs insisted that the aim of the proposed trading mechanism would be to enable poorer countries, to realise their potentials for renewables.

Lords challenge to EU committee
Monday, 12 November 2007

A group of peers plans to challenge the government over pro-EU bias in the composition of a House of Lords committee that will advise it on the “Reform” Treaty.

Membership of the EU Select Committee is being decided in secret and it looks set to be packed with supporters of ratification of the treaty. Concerned peers are to raise a point of order in the House to voice their misgivings.

UK Independence Party peer Lord Pearson of Rannoch said the committee should be "balanced to ensure a fair and open debate on the Reform Treaty.

"The House of Lords is the best chance the country has of getting a referendum on the hated treaty, which the Prime Minister has said he will not give.

"Sixteen of the 18 current members of the committee are massively in favour of the treaty and two members even receive EU pensions, which they risk losing if they speak out against the aims of the EU.

"The Reform Treaty is simply too important to whitewash and we must have a balanced and fair committee to be in with a chance of securing a referendum for the people."

The peers are also demanding that the committee meetings should be open to the public.

"At present, it meets in secret, and that is wholly unacceptable," said Lord Pearson

Ivenceremous - any fool can copy and paste pro and anti EU press releases.
If you keep avoiding answering direct questions and think that pasting pro EU press releases will get you off the hook you are sadly mistaken.
Surprise, surprise, you keep threatening to quit - yet you always come back for another round.
Well let me make this crystal clear you will not be allowed to post your pro EU spam without it being challenged. No quarter shall be given.

I understand why you changed your trading name from Venceremos to Ivenceremos.
Because Venceremos means WE SHALL OVERCOME
and that applies to the desire most British and European people have to be rid of and free from the EU.
When we are free of the EU then perhaps we too will be able to say Ivenceremos! (we HAVE overcome).

Dear readers all, ¡venceremos! for those who do not speak or read Spanish (and clearly some here are not only hopelessly illiterate in English but are miserably monolingual) uses an exclamation-mark at the end and is preceded with an inverted exclamation-mark in the Spanish manner, as an exclamation, "we will win" or "we will vanquish".

It was used by the Chilean left and adopted, in solidarity, by the Cuban socialists.

It is not, I repeat not, an "i" but an inverted exclamation-mark.

No such verb-ending as Ivenceremos!

Oh, and finally, Mr "Watsa-a-Matter-You-Shaddap-a-Yer-Face" and others, may I request that all those who cut & paste information do so with a reference link to the original article? Otherwise their source is questionable.

as they say little things please little minds

You'll know all about that, of course. Do you remember your friend 'Festival of Snickers' and his advice to you, "Go screw yourself, Bigot"?

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... 7656#97656

Shame you didn't take his advice!

¡venceremos! wrote:Address yourself to the challenges I have made. Prove your unfounded accusations against me!

And what are they but of a Walter Mitty who pulls things out of a fevered, conspiracy-ridden imagination and accuses others of things they have never done!?

You have lied about me in public, suggesting I took bribes from the EU, when what I did was not only a public service for the communities of the Moray Firth I love but on behalf of all the beautiful whales and dolphins that make their home here!

And you dare to suggest that I did it for money! Can you understand that there are people in this world who happily make sacrifices for things they love and which have nothing to do with money? That there are humans who possess an eternal vision which goes very far beyond this world?

You have lied about me suggesting I support NATO when my track-record clearly proves the opposite! Why should anyone believe anything said by a pathological liar?

Will you now apologise for lying about me or not? And will you answer the challenges I make for you, now, to prove your allegations?

If you were an honest debater and you are not, you would agree to disagree. You cannot do that for you have an agenda to push and you do it in such a manner that you cry wolf, talk about libel, or run to the headmaster (ie the organisers of this site) when you cant get your way.


You stated the following:

I'd much rather put my faith amongst Europeans in a United States of Europe than with the gormless morons who comprise a large part of a fascist USA in which we'd be a vassal state linked to it through NAFTA

You also stated to another poster,

Frazzel, this is a misconception. Compared to Westminster the EU structures remain very open and accountable to any EU citizen. I know this because I have lobbied on issues for EU support where none was forthcoming from Westminster.[/b]

After ignoring what I said for three times that the EU is a USA in the making you came out openly to admit that its better than the USA and that there is no forced EU dictat like Hitler before him.

Funny NATO which is led by the Yanks is currently in occupation of Afghanistan and is also in occupation of Kosovo and has a presence in Bosnia. So if you are an ex-Yugoslav NATO is imposing its dictat.

Nuclear warheads aimed at Moscow are also to be stationed in E. Europe which is a sign of a new cold war.

So after having ignored for 2-3 times my point about the Euro-Constitution being turned down by referendums you continue to babble on about where you support the EU-NATO as if one and the other are DIFFERENT.

Being an EU apologist you are a NATO lover point blank. If that is a libellous misrepresentation of your position, then you have to show how supporting the EU equals not supporting its military structures as one is a condition of the other.