Eurosocialist & Antifascist: Who's blocking our Rights?

Non-9/11 Topics that are controversial

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Rory Winter
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Post by Rory Winter »

If you were an honest debater and you are not, you would agree to disagree. You cannot do that for you have an agenda to push and you do it in such a manner that you cry wolf, talk about libel, or run to the headmaster (ie the organisers of this site) when you cant get your way.

CA, you still ignore the challenge I have made you. I refuse to deal with you henceforth until you face that challenge and deal with it
. Too often I have been accused of all manner of calumnies from bigots on this forum who, though they avoid discussing the issues herein, then turn reality on its head and accuse me of the same!

Whereas, any unbiased reader who goes through this thread will see just how much time and trouble I have taken to answer many of the questions in detail!
Being an EU apologist you are a NATO lover point blank.
Again, you betray your gross ignorance. The EU and NATO are entirely two separate organisations, the former having been initiated and led by the USA. Whereas many European countries belong to NATO it remains a separate organization against which I have consistently campaigned over the last 30 years, since the days of my organising activities in the Peace Movement (of which, no doubt, you'll be too young to remember or know much about).

But bigots like you are neither interested to hear that or take note of it when it's said.

Never mind, I repeat, first you answer my challenge and apologise to me publicly for libelling me. Until such time and due to the offence caused I shall not deal with you as I no longer deal with that other idiot.
Last edited by Rory Winter on Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by conspiracy analyst »

An overwhelming majority of European countries belong to NATO as they do to the EU. Its separateness exists on paper, not in practice much like your title 'anti-fascist' and 'euro-socialist' which equals EU apologist.

Britain doesn't have the Euro so what? Isn't it part of the EU?

The main argument was that you said there is no enforced imposition of the EU on member states. There is. You cannot leave the EU unless you jump 50 impossible hurdles, you cannot not follow EU directives unless you want to be bankrupted. So what is the difference between economic dictat and military? Or the EU and NATO? Not much.

Here is NATO becoming EUFOR.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1203/p07s02-woeu.html

Whats the difference? The name?
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Post by Rory Winter »

Deal with it! Deal with your Lies and Libels!

You're not going to worm yourself out of it. You will be held accountable!
if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...
Thats a straight libel!

There are others such as the accusation of "belonging to the Mandelson wing of the Labour Party" and of "supporting NATO" all of which are totally untrue. But that's all just gibberish written by someone who specialises in gibberish.

But to be publicly accused of taking bribes off a gravy train is serious and I will hold you to that. Either prove it or apologise!
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Post by Rory Winter »

The Silence which then Ensued Told All the World the Truth in a Manner which Mere Words Could Not!

So please remember, dear readers, that people who stoop to libel and calumny and who would turn reality on its head, who would insist that black is white to conveniently fit their distorted vision of the world ... are not to be trusted with even the smallest of issues, never mind the big ones.
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Post by Leiff »

conspiracy analyst wrote:But then again if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...
¡venceremos! wrote:But to be publicly accused of taking bribes off a gravy train is serious and I will hold you to that. Either prove it or apologise!
Living off the EU gravy train hasn't necessarily got anything to do with taking bribes.
stelios wrote:Every reader of this 'debate' can judge for themselves that other than your rudeness and empty threats you have not given one single example of what benefits the EU brings to the UK where you actually reside. Nor have you given one single example of how the EU benefits the rest of the world.
:?:
"Democracy is sustained not by public trust but by public scepticism"
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Post by Rory Winter »

Ah, Leiff, I see it's your turn now is it?

You quote a person, 'Stelios', who already has a history of making libellous statements which had to be removed from this forum and expect others to consider anything he says to be credible!
Living off the EU gravy train hasn't necessarily got anything to do with taking bribes.
Whether or not it suggested bribery, the statement remains a libel.

Can you enlighten us all, Leiff, how it is possible to be on a gravy train withjout taking one or another form of bribe?

What do you think the phrase 'gravy-train' means?

Oxford Dictionary:

"gravy train"

• noun informal a situation in which someone can easily make a lot of money.


So are you suggesting that there's another kind of gravy-train not concerning money? If so, please do enlighten us all. [sits on the edge of his seat full of anticipation]

I know you have got it in for me (like the rest of the pack) but you too will be held accountable for your statements.
Last edited by Rory Winter on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by karlos »

¡venceremos! wrote:
as they say little things please little minds
You'll know all about that, of course. Do you remember your friend 'Festival of Snickers' and his advice to you, "Go screw yourself, Bigot"?

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... 7656#97656

Shame you didn't take his advice!
Festival of Sniggers is a American racist. There is no secret about that.
The fact that i dont swear at people is to my credit.
You are too much of a coward though to speak as forthrightly as my American adversary. Instead copy and paste is your Modus.
You are a one trick - one trip pony
Venceremos - i am glad you are choosing your friends wisely. I see your penpal is not supporting you anymore after your Peter Mandelsohn slander.
Still once festival realises you are a Sri Lankan he aint gonna wanna play with you anymore. His KKK mates wont let him.

By the way i said to festival i prefered Wispa bars to Snickers bars. That provoked his outburst.
I am going to say to you that i prefer Russian Vodka to Cuban Rum.
Feel free to be as rude as you dare dear.
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Post by karlos »

Venceremos wrote:Thats a straight libel!
You have made an allegation, now back it up.
You have repeated that allegation against CA and Leiff several times so you better put up or shut up.
You have also made allegations about me
Venceremos wrote:'Stelios', who already has a history of making libellous statements which had to be removed from this forum
OK so what are these libellous statements? I am not aware of anything being removed.
Again you have made baseless allegations - now substantiate them or shut up.

If i was to threaten to do you for libel i really will do it. I dont make idle threats and i know exactly what such an action requires. So i really strongly recommend you retract your threats and allegations against all the posters on this topic. You are no longer a school teacher so you can save your Jean Brodie routine for your great grand children.
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Post by Rory Winter »

OK so what are these libellous statements? I am not aware of anything being removed.
I am only answering you, Mr McCarthyite terrorist, because this is a serious question. Various libellous comments you have made against Peter Tatchell were taken down because these would make the 911 Forum legally liable for your lies.

Just as you have libelled Tatchell on this list so this dubious character, Conspiracy Analyst (do you two work as a team to terrorise people whose ideas you don't like?), has libelled me by accusing me of taking bribes (ie jumping on a gravy train)

Both your libels and his show just what kind of people we're dealing with here. Your respective mentalities absolutely revolt me.
and i know exactly what such an action requires
Oh, I know you do, after having done so with the Stelios (Haji-Ioannou) whose name you use as a hunting-trophy. Well, you still seem to be high on that success, Mr Khan, seeing as you think you can terrorise people on this list the way you do. Only time will tell whose behaviour will be found more acceptable by those, no matter what their views, would prefer things to be discussed intelligently and not just with gutter-press invective of the kind you replace sensible argument with.
You have repeated that allegation against CA and Leiff several times
What allegation?

Oh, I mistook you for a practising Muslim, Mr Khan. But you still imbibe alcohol, do you? Well, as you do try Polish vodka. It's far stronger and superior to the Russian brands you drink.

OK, now just go and follow the advice of Mr Snickers.
Last edited by Rory Winter on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Rory Winter »

UK 'worst EU state pension system'
AOL Money

http://money.aol.co.uk/uk-worst-eu-stat ... 1709990001

The UK has the worst state pension system in the European Union for the second year running, a report has said.

Consultancy firm Aon Consulting said the "inadequacy" of the UK's state pension system was "beyond question".

It said the state pension in this country provided workers with an income equivalent to just 17% of average earnings, that this was the lowest level in Europe and that it was well below the average for all EU countries of 57%.

It added that even the Netherlands, which had the second lowest level, provided a state pension equivalent to 30% of average earnings - nearly double the UK figure.

The group said only for the lowest earners, where the Government has specifically targeted benefits, does the level of state pension relative to pre-retirement income start to approach the level provided by other countries.

Aon said for many years there had been a gradual shift in the UK pension system away from the state and towards employers and individuals making their own provisions. But it warned that while this shift had previously been sustainable because the slack had been taken up by the private sector, this was no longer the case.

It said a spate of scandals, crises and changes to the legislation relating to pensions had jeopardised this position, generating a lack of confidence in the pensions system among both employers and individuals.

It said private pension provision remained strong at the current time due to the momentum of existing schemes. But it warned that firms were continuing to switch from generous defined benefit schemes, under which companies state how much a pension will be worth on retirement, to less generous defined contribution ones under which firms only guarantee the contributions they will make.

Aon said that although the UK state pension was the least adequate in Europe, it was among the most affordable in the long-term. It said plans to increase the state pension age from 65 to 68 during the coming 30 years should help to maintain affordability, while the UK was one of only seven countries whose spending on the state pension was forecast to remain below 10% of Gross Domestic Product.

Denmark had the best overall state pension scheme, followed by the Netherlands and Sweden.
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Post by xmasdale »

karlos wrote:
Venceremos wrote:Thats a straight libel!
You have made an allegation, now back it up.
You have repeated that allegation against CA and Leiff several times so you better put up or shut up.
You have also made allegations about me
Venceremos wrote:'Stelios', who already has a history of making libellous statements which had to be removed from this forum
OK so what are these libellous statements? I am not aware of anything being removed.
Again you have made baseless allegations - now substantiate them or shut up.

If i was to threaten to do you for libel i really will do it. I dont make idle threats and i know exactly what such an action requires. So i really strongly recommend you retract your threats and allegations against all the posters on this topic. You are no longer a school teacher so you can save your Jean Brodie routine for your great grand children.
Two threads full of libellous accusations about Peter Tatchell made by Karl Kahn, who now appears to have changed his screen name from Stelios to Karlos, were removed. I am told, but have not personally looked into the matter, that another thread containing libel from him against Rachel North was also removed after she had sent a solicitor's letter to the moderators.

The two about Peter Tatchell were entitled Ahmadinajad for 9/11 Truth, and Tatchell withdraws from Oxford Union debate [or somesuch].

On another thread entitiled Brown Fetes Saudi Tyrant, which Karl did not post on perhaps because it gave lie to his unsubstantiated allegation that Peter Tatchell only protests against human rights abuses in countries which the British government is antagonistic towards, I have written an explanation of the libelous allegations made by Karl and why they are totally untrue.

How do I know they are untrue? Because I have been friends with Peter Tatchell for the past 36 years, at times campaigning with him on various projects. I have followed his career closely. I am horrified by the way that some people fall hook, line and sinker for the disinformation the bigoted mainstream media spread about him. I have consulted him closely about the libels made by Karl against him.

Here is a link to the Brown Fetes Saudi Tyrant thread which has not been removed because it contains no libels that I am aware of - yet! Though once Karl becomes aware of what has been written on it I daresay that will change. http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... highlight=

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Post by conspiracy analyst »

¡venceremos! wrote:
Just as you have libelled Tatchell on this list so this dubious character, Conspiracy Analyst (do you two work as a team to terrorise people whose ideas you don't like?), has libelled me by accusing me of taking bribes (ie jumping on a gravy train)

Both your libels and his show just what kind of people we're dealing with here. Your respective mentalities absolutely revolt me.
and i know exactly what such an action requires
I said you probably imply living off the gravy train... I didn't say you do.
But a question raised needs to be answered even if you pretend you aren't dubious. If you were lobbying for the dolphins of the north sea, you needed money for that if you were in Brussels. So I assumed that you might be on an NGO racket or some such thing. I dont recall saying you were or you took bribes. You assumed gravy train equals taking bribes.
Kinnock and his wife are on the EU gravy train. Do they take bribes? On their salaries they probably dont need to.

Now you have alleged I am working in tandem with Karl. I disagree politically on a lot of issues with Karl. That is already out in the open. I dont support the free market unlike yourself. I believe the EU is a USA in the making. You dont. The differences are political and until you grow up, which I think is impossible at this late stage in your life, you can stop crying to the organisers of this site, and crying wolf-libel.
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Post by ian neal »

Sigh

Karl it is not your opinions that are the problem.

Users are of course free to

1) offer unquestioning support the Iranian government
2) challenge supporters of the EU
3) challenge the campaigning history and wider beliefs of people such as Peter Tatchell and Rachel North and so on

On quite a few issues we probably agree. But it is how you are expressing these views that is the problem

As I have said before, your worldview, based on your posts, seems to be a very black and white affair in which anyone who disagrees with your views is a zionist, neo-con stooge and a fool.

To you it seems

Any critic of Iran or hamas is islamophobic
Anyone who advocates the UK lowering the age of consent in line with other countries is a paedophile
Anyone who avoids (for whatever reasons) the Israeli connections to 7/7 and 9/11 is a neo-con, zionist agent
Anyone who does not publicly denounce David Shayler is a muppet, etc.

Is that about right?

Look at the issues you regularly comment on: PT, RN, Iran, EU, Israel and zionism, D Shayler, etc. On all these debates your posts inflame rather than inform discussions. You actively seek out those you disagree with and you seem incapable of holding a reasoned discussion with them.

So please learn from this. You cannot expect others to respect and tolerate you if you do not show respect and tolerance in return.

In this movement, we can basically either spend our time seeking out and picking fights with those we disagree with, adding fuel to the fire and stoking divisions within the movement or we can concentrate on more positive activities such as building friendships and influence with those that share our views rather than entering endless tedious squabbles with those that don't.

It is not what you say but how you say it. Respect and tolerance please
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Post by Rory Winter »

I said you probably imply living off the gravy train... I didn't say you do.
But a question raised needs to be answered even if you pretend you aren't dubious. If you were lobbying for the dolphins of the north sea, you needed money for that if you were in Brussels. So I assumed that you might be on an NGO racket or some such thing. I dont recall saying you were or you took bribes. You assumed gravy train equals taking bribes.
Kinnock and his wife are on the EU gravy train. Do they take bribes? On their salaries they probably dont need to.
CA, you made a grammatically incorrect remark implying that I was probably on the EU gravy train (it was your implication, not mine!). You qualify your allegation with "probably" but that's still a libel! You can't go around saying things like without expecting them to be picked up so I suggest a little more caution in future.

Being a WYSIWYG person I am quite happy to tell you that the funding I received (less than £200.00) came initially from Greenpeace and then, later,a donation from the Findhorn Foundation with which I was then associated. Other than that there were small donations in kind from the Foundation for Gaia (for fuel costs). Otherwise all expenditure was met by myself personally and by my Swiss friend, the late Richard Hutter, who helped me travel to the Continent and back.

Oh, and I received a complete set of signed copies of books of poems by Heathcote Williams, two of which I kept and the rest donated to charity organisations. The President of our pressure-group, Moray Firth LINK, was the late Sir George Trevelyan and we also received support in writing from Prince Charles and Rhodri Morgan, present leader of the Welsh Assembly, amongst others.

Before going to the Commission for the first time, I prepared an extensive report on the state of the Moray Firth, using annual reports from the Highland River Purification Board (as it then was). The Commission was so impressed they asked to keep it so I left my original copy with them, data, photographs and all.

Bearing in mind the huge area the Commission covers it has a relatively tiny staff to do it with. So, in the 'nineties at least, it depended on local support from environmentalists to give it feedback from ground level. Hence the welcome I received not only by the Commission but by the Council of Europe and the Europarliament.

As the European Commission were such heavy funders of the Highlands (when the Westminster Government not only starved it of funds but misappropriated European funds meant to be spent nationally) we were able to exert pressure on the Regional Council to provide a proper, Secondary-level Plus water treatment for Inverness. However, the last I heard they're still back-pedalling and trying to renege on their commitments.
So I assumed that you might be on an NGO racket or some such thing. I dont recall saying you were or you took bribes.
Don't assume. Check your facts before going public. Look up 'Gravy Train' in the dictionary. It is, indeed and in principle, about making monetary gain, taking one or another form of bribe.
Now you have alleged I am working in tandem with Karl.
reference,
(do you two work as a team to terrorise people whose ideas you don't like?)
Is a question, not an allegation. You really must read things properly without imagining them!

Now, how about that apology or are you just going to stubbornly refuse to admit to your errors as you customarily do? Such cavalier behaviour is not only totally unacceptable it exposes you for making preposterously inaccurate statements which you are then unable to substantiate.

CA, whether you admit it or not, you have been exposed in public for playing a nasty little game of character-assassination.
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Post by Rory Winter »

Dear readers all, despite several attempts to sabotage and derail this thread by people whose integrity has been put into question by their tendency to libel opponents, I will do everything within my means to ensure that it remains open.

As I have already explained to the Administrator I maintain that people have the right to hear things they might not otherwise hear. They will make up their own minds what to believe and what not to.

But the kind of McCarthyite tactics that have been used by certain individuals on this thread will neither be tolerated or allowed to prevail. Not so long, at least, as the 911 Forum is a place for free and responsible expression.
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Post by conspiracy analyst »

¡venceremos! wrote:Dear readers all, despite several attempts to sabotage and derail this thread by people whose integrity has been put into question by their tendency to libel opponents, I will do everything within my means to ensure that it remains open.

As I have already explained to the Administrator I maintain that people have the right to hear things they might not otherwise hear. They will make up their own minds what to believe and what not to.

But the kind of McCarthite tactics that have been used by certain individuals on this thread will neither be tolerated or allowed to prevail. Not so long, at least, as the 911 Forum is a place for free and responsible expression.
You are a pro-European globalist.
The political issues have been diverted to personal issues which you started with myself calling me a whole host of names.
You then focused on a word and cried libel.

This was the tactic of Mussolini. He also had a left persona originating from anti-war movement.

Now run like a good little lapdog and complain to the Administrator. You also called me dubious and then went on to list all the 'great and the good' that you know. Funny how you have an anti-establishment persona and then you hang around with that precise establishment.
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Post by Rory Winter »

And you, who are so embittered and see a conspiracy behind everything, are a liar who when confronted with his lies refuses to apologise.

Every sensible reader on this list will see that you have, indeed, libelled me in public and in words that are recorded for all to see!
But then again if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...
Nobody trusts one who has been exposed to be a liar.

Or one who indulges in character-assassination. And before you turn that around on me, don't forget, it is you who stand accused of libel and who can no longer prove otherwise.

Liar, liar, pants on fire!
You also called me dubious and then went on to list all the 'great and the good' that you know. Funny how you have an anti-establishment persona and then you hang around with that precise establishment.
I didn't 'hang around' with them, oh befuddled one. They respected and supported my work. A lot of folk around the Moray Firth remember me for my services to the community and I am proud of my accomplishments. So don't try and fool around with a proud Highlander my sassenach friend, I'll have ye fer haggis!
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Post by conspiracy analyst »

¡venceremos! wrote:And you, who are so embittered and see a conspiracy behind everything, are a liar who when confronted with his lies refuses to apologise.

Every sensible reader on this list will see that you have, indeed, libelled me in public and in words that are recorded for all to see!
But then again if you spend time lobbying you probably imply living off the EU gravy train...
Nobody trusts one who has been exposed to be a liar.

Or one who indulges in character-assassination. And before you turn that around on me, don't forget, it is you who stand accused of libel and who can no longer prove otherwise.

Liar, liar, pants on fire!
You also called me dubious and then went on to list all the 'great and the good' that you know. Funny how you have an anti-establishment persona and then you hang around with that precise establishment.
I didn't 'hang around' with them, oh befuddled one. They respected and supported my work. A lot of folk around the Moray Firth remember me for my services to the community and I am proud of my accomplishments. So don't try and fool around with a proud Highlander my sassenach friend, I'll have ye fer haggis!
No one trusts pro-European globalists as evidenced in the last elections when UKIP came 2nd I believe and majority populations turned down the EU constitution which you want to ram down our throats and if we disagree its ...libel and other such nonsense.

Grow up but I think you may have passed that stage.

Now you are playing the pseudo-'Scottish' card which is another game plan from Brussels just like the break-up of Belgium.

If a Lord or a Sir respects my work I will be doing something wrong.
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Post by xmasdale »

xmasdale wrote:

Here is a link to the Brown Fetes Saudi Tyrant thread which has not been removed because it contains no libels that I am aware of - yet! Though once Karl becomes aware of what has been written on it I daresay that will change. http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... highlight=

Noel
It seems that link is incorrect. Try this: http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... udi+tyrant
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Post by Rory Winter »

Grow up but I think you may have passed that stage.
What an embittered little mind you have Conspiracy Analyst, sitting there in a cold, lonely little room looking out at all the world as if it's a conspiracy against little you! So sad, little Nowhere Man.

Just get this into your head, No matter how much you taunt me, I refuse to dialogue with you any further because of the atrocious way you have libelled me and then refuse to apologise.

No doubt you will haunt this thread like a troll that's past its sell-by-date, or should I say a kling-on down the pan?

No matter, you know what you have to do and until you do so you will be ignored. And I think other readers will see why I now treat you with such utter contempt.
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Post by Rory Winter »

Now you are playing the pseudo-'Scottish' card which is another game plan from Brussels just like the break-up of Belgium.
This man is completely mad! Not only that but he is now insulting every Scot who yearns for independence from the imperialist attitudes of Westminster.

What a "pseudo-'Scottish' card" is meant to be I have no idea. I assume it's yet another insult. As I have lived in Scotland --the country of my choice-- for 21 years I considered myself to be a naturalised or 'New Scots' as the Scotsman and Herald would put it.

We have rehearsed the independence argument on other threads about which Mitty seems to have forgotten. I don't intend to bore readers with it all over again. But now to reduce the drive for an independent Scotland to be nothing more than "another game-plan from Brussels" not only exposes him as a mindless bigot but it is a gross insult against the Scots.

I don't know who you are or where you come from but how dare you insult us in this way, you ignorant little man?! Mitty, while hiding behind his grandiose title of Conspiracy Analyst (you wouldn't recognize a conspiracy if it was breathing down on you let alone to be in a fit state of mind to analyse it!) is actually an apologist for British imperialism.

And, as said before, not a squeak from any of these 'freedom fighters' about the way Britain has become a police-state! These people are not only their own worst enemies, they are a liability to us all.

Scorn and contempt is what they should be treated with. And don't forget to keep taking the medication.
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UKIP and the BNP

Post by Rory Winter »

UKIP and the BNP - two cheeks of the same arse
http://ukipwatch.org/2007/10/ukip-and-b ... -arse.html

The fraternal brotherhood of the British extreme right is not what it should be. At last week's UKIP conference, their comrades from the fascist BNP paid a visit to hand out leaflets and literature to the several hundred delegates. According to the BNP, "a substantial proportion of BNP activists are themselves former UKIP members".

It appears that this selfless act of intellectual enrichment was not welcomed by some of UKIPs younger contingent who "became hysterical and aggressive… ranting and screaming... and tried snatching leaflets out of the hands of UKIP delegates" (sounds like fairly typical UKIP behaviour to anyone who has attended a public meeting with a UKIP speaker).

The bottom line is that UKIP has lost a third of its members since the 2004 election, a quarter of its MEPs have either been suspended, gone AWOL or are in jail, they are the seventh largest party in local government (fewer councillors than the old Liberal party) and not even their own MEPs and officials take their party seriously. Given that UKIP and the BNP have swapped candidates and members for some time now, it is not surprising that the BNP feels that UKIPs vulnerability means they can poach some of their members.

Much as it is stomach turning that the BNP (of all people) have the sheer brass-neck to complain about "thuggish" behaviour by UKIP activists, it serves to remind us that, after all, UKIP and the BNP are two cheeks of the same arse.

UKIP in embezzlement scandal

Revealed: Ukip official gave money to the BNP

UKIP and the missing £118,000

UKIP faces funding scandal

Ukip is facing fresh allegations over finances
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Re: UKIP and the BNP

Post by TonyGosling »

Articulate as ever :roll:

The EU is a fascist United States of Europe with not a shred of democratic accountability, just as Hitler would have wanted. As MEPs will tell you all they can do is battle like mad to delay legislation and if they are successful it just reappears in a few months time in a different disguise.

Anyone who campaigns against Britain being subsumed by this monolithic beast is demonised in just about the same way as if they were Muslims.

Anyone who supports Britain's membership of the EU, whose policymaking agenda is run by the European Round Table Of Industrialists, needs their head examined.
¡venceremos! wrote:UKIP and the BNP - two cheeks of the same arse
http://ukipwatch.org/2007/10/ukip-and-b ... -arse.html
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Post by Rory Winter »

The EU is a fascist United States of Europe with not a shred of democratic accountability, just as Hitler would have wanted. As MEPs will tell you all they can do is battle like mad to delay legislation and if they are successful it just reappears in a few months time in a different disguise.

Anyone who campaigns against Britain being subsumed by this monolithic beast is demonised in just about the same way as if they were Muslims.

Anyone who supports Britain's membership of the EU, whose policymaking agenda is run by the European Round Table Of Industrialists, needs their head examined.
You are entitled to your opinion, naturally. I suppose you felt you had to throw in your weight as the current Administatrator (and, oh my god, don't you make it obvious, 'Administrator' in red and all!). Don't forget, Tony, it's only for three months so you're really on probation. ;-)

Is this rather heavy-weight action meant as a shot across the bow?
As MEPs will tell you all they can do is battle like mad to delay legislation and if they are successful it just reappears in a few months time in a different disguise.
As I have repeatedly pointed out on this thread -none of which you can have read, otherwise you wouldn't be saying this- there is a serious problem concerning the balance of powers within the EU with the Europarliament desperately needing to be beefed-up.

And who blocks this? The very people who are pushing through all this draconian legislation, the Council of Ministers. And who appoints the Council? The national governments of course.

So I suggest you blame the national governments and their trojan horse, the Council of Ministers. and not the Europarliament. But then, are you really interested to bother yourself when you dismiss the European project in its entirety like so many others do?
The EU is a fascist United States of Europe with not a shred of democratic accountability
Another one of those UKIP-like statements which simply doesn't stand up to the light of day! The EU has a damn sight more accountability than ever Westminster has.
Articulate as ever
Well you should know having been a journalist! What do you mean, the title of that UKIP piece? If so, that was taken from the blog, it's not my comment. Check it.
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Post by TonyGosling »

I didn't blame the European Parliament for anything - please re-read my post. The real problem is the entire system - stemming from the Commission full of rotten failed politicians at the top of the EU pyramid none of whom give a damn about ordinary people. They try to control a structure every bit as totalitarian as the USA is right now.

One good thing to say about the EU is the Social Chapter which Britain still refuses to implement - I wish we would - but the only reason that is there is because of the social justice leanings of most of the European national governments, not because the EU is in any way benevolent.

One good thing about all this is that IMHO the EU can never succeed because it has absolutely no popular support.
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Post by Rory Winter »

I didn't blame the European Parliament for anything - please re-read my post. The real problem is the entire system
You miss the point. The problem you describe stems from the Council of Ministers who are appointed by national governments. The Commission are their civil servants, there to take orders.

While the Europarliament comes a poor third with hardly any say in anything.

The real problem is not "the entire system" but the way the balance of powers are presently constituted, something which often happens when a new form of governance comes into being.
stemming from the Commission full of rotten failed politicians at the top of the EU pyramid
A Commission elected by the Council which is where your concerns (as well as mine) lie.
because of the social justice leanings of most of the European national governments
Which governments do you mean? The British who are so busy trying to water down the Charter of Fundamental Rights as well as to opt out of it whenever it wishes? What kind of social justice is that?

To sum up: the present dissatisfaction that so many people (including myself) have with the EU stems from a serious imbalance of powers within it and not from the project itself. Hence, it is that problem we should be addressing instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Post by conspiracy analyst »

¡venceremos! wrote:
Now you are playing the pseudo-'Scottish' card which is another game plan from Brussels just like the break-up of Belgium.


This man is completely mad! Not only that but he is now insulting every Scot who yearns for independence from the imperialist attitudes of Westminster.

No matter, you know what you have to do and until you do so you will be ignored. And I think other readers will see why I now treat you with such utter contempt.




And don't forget to keep taking the medication.
One moment your talking the other you are not?
And you talk about medication?
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Post by ian neal »

English parliament? British parliament? European parliament? Global parliament? It doesn't matter a stuff so long as a bunch of sociopathic war criminals call the real shots and the vast majority of MPs around the world in which ever parliament they sit, sit on their hands and close their eyes, ears amd mouths. Those who refuse to speak out against the lies and bs are collaborators in war crimes and the crimes of 9/11. Unless this is acknowledged discussion of the merits or otherwise of the EU is irrelevant IMO.

Oh and please be repectful and tolerant of each other.
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Post by Rory Winter »

I'm sure there are a substantial number of MEPs who are in agreement about false-flag operations. I don't have the close contacts I had a decade ago with MEPs so I don't know who these might be. But knowing the Greens' suspicion of the State, in principle, it wouldn't surprise me if some were in agreement that 911 was a false flag.

What all these anti-EU people seem to have in common is that they don't have any coherent alternative. We live in a world ruled by ruthless capitalists hiding behind the tag of liberalism or neo-liberalism. Their idea of economics is to privatise everything and the devil take the hindmost.

What we see in this capitalist world are the developments of huge economic blocs. In North America we have NAFTA (USA, Canada and Mexico), in Europe we have the European Union, farther east we have the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization) embracing Russia, China, Iran and I believe India (though the US is trying hard to decouple India from the SCO).

Image
SCO

By the way, I would suggest it's very likely that the current USUK/Sarkozy stance against Iran is motivated by (1) trying to stop and reverse its growth as a Middle Eastern and Asian power, and (2) to dislocate the SCO by so doing.

In Africa we have the African Union (which the US is trying to destroy through its NATO-for-Africa, AFRICOM, a dangerous move) and in South America we have the only thing that approaches a socialist economy, the Venezuelan-led MERCOSUR.

Australia is making deals with Japan and China with the latter playing an increasingly big role in the Australian economy.

That is, admittedly, a rule of thumb description but which indicates just how geopolitics is playing out across our Planet right now.

So, I return to the question: leaving aside the incredible economic dislocation that Britain's leaving the EU would entail, leaving aside the question of a rising call for Scottish independence and the SNP's commitment to a Scotland within the EU, just what kind of future do these Eurosceptics and Europhobes propose?

No good looking to the Commonwealth. We deserted that a long time ago. And anyone who looks at the economics of the old Empire out of which the Commonwealth arose in the 1950's will see that it was basically built in favour of Britain and the white Commonwealth obtaining cheap materials at cheap labour costs from the Black Commonwealth. So any hope that Britain would be welcomed with open arms by the countries they screwed so harshly in imperialist times is guaranteed to be dashed.

A Free Trade Zone with Northern Europe? Maybe with Norway, the Faroes and Iceland but no one else.

So where else? We would be far too weak to carry on alone against all these protection zones. Oh, well there's NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Association. Fascists like the now discredited Conrad Black and the yet-to-be-jailed Murdoch brothers would have liked us tied yet tighter in a Goetterdaemmerung Anglo-Saxon Alliance death-pact with Washington.

The way things are going with that death-pact, by the way, what we see are the English-speaking world, USA (English?) and Canada already in NAFTA (which is already not very popular with a lot of Canadians). Is the long-term intention of the US (and their complicit Murdoch Press) to decouple Britain from the EU in order that it should fall neatly into the hands of NAFTA?

With the $US collapsing they might have big problems there anyway.

That would only leave Australia so clearly the acronym would have to be changed to include a North Atlantic and Pacific military/economic bloc based on the continued imperialist rape of Planet Earth.

So, given the outside possibility of allying ourselves with a race of benevolent extra-terrestrials from, say, the Pleiades (wouldn't that be nice?) what options are left? Can we discuss this?
Last edited by Rory Winter on Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Rory Winter »

I fully agree with Ian Neals' sentiments above. There is a planetary conspiracy of silence, broken only by Russia, Cuba, Venezuela and Iran who have spoken out against the 911 lies.

But the point here is that, for too long, Britain's reactionary right-wing, 'yellow press' has been barraging the British public with an endless stream of anti-EU defamation, much of which are just downright lies.

I tried to have a debate here and was hounded for having done so. Now, with the advent of Tony Gosling's contributions above I think there may really be an opportunity to discuss this important matter without cheap and meaningless invective replacing discussion.

I would be delighted if this were so because as I have said all along my purpose for having started this thread with an article from my blog, Chimes of Freedom, was to present to the 911 Forum readers an alternative view of an EU which is, contrary to presented opinion, nothing like a monolith and which is not just a conspiracy of Nu Labour-type bureaucrats.

Behind all the various opinions presented here I detect one common thread of thinking which I too subscribe to. The EU structure as it is presently constituted is not only quite unacceptable but it is leading to a revolt of public opinion right across the continent and the British Isles.

I wager you good money that near-as-dammit every problem that has arisen out of the EU (other than ones concerning plain xenophobia or silly things like which side of the road we should drive on) have been caused as a direct result of the arrogant and anti-social democratic behaviour of the Council of Ministers whose orders are given to the Commission to merely carry out.

The real power within the EU remains not with the Commission or the Parliament but with the Council of Ministers who are appointed by national governments (in our case Westminster) and who push the agenda and envelope.

Now, this is the kind of analysis that you will hardly ever see in the British Press which is largely either openly hostile or sceptical about matters Continental. That is due to the inherent sense of superiority still so often felt by British journalists brought up to look back romantically upon a long-dead Empire based on naked imperialism. That and a large dash of racism which describes the French as "frogs", the Spanish as "dagoes", the Germans as "krauts", Italians as "spics" etc, all of which the Scum newspaper happily trots out with never a legal challenge.

I had hoped all along that the 911 Forum might provide a place for intelligent debate on this. That was before the thread was derailed by those who were less concerned with debate but of hounding anyone who dared to speak in favour of the European Union. I resisted them and dug my heels in for a long war, determined not to be bullied by trolls.

So, as I say, with the aid of several sane contributions which have been made recently and with Tony's reasonable approach to discussion, I hope we can now begin to talk with each other rather than to shout at each other. Yes, colourful words are used from time-to-time but it's easy enough to see whether they are used within the context of a much larger text of reasoned argument than simply as a method of intimidation.

In the matter of one person, ex-Stelios, who I refused to deal with any longer for his refusal to discuss matters in a civil manner and the other who libelled me ("gravy train") my replies were finally made in sheer frustration of being constantly hounded by both. I hope that can all be left in the past now (can it, will it?) and we can have some sensible discussion of a subject that affects all our futures.
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