Politicking putting this forum & campaign at risk

[Anthony Lawson]

The likes of Rick Segal?!

I disagree with you, this IS one of the best 911 sites in the world and remains so. It' so good to see the likes of Rick Segal saying so.

Here is part of an e-mail that I received from Rick Segal dated 30 November, 2007.

I lived 15 years in NYC and I know no one who saw any plane except the "thing" on TV. I only "know" the plane from TV. Is that evidence?

Apart from quoting someone like Rick Segal, in support of this site, and, presumably, his role as a moderator, or “editor”, I have to agree with Busker: I have no faith in Tony Gosling’s judgmental abilities; moderators have to stick to the rules, and apply them equally to all. Tony Gosling has demonstrated, in several instances in which I was directly involved, that he does not do that.

[James C]

I'm sure that Tony Gosling's intentions are good but I too have little faith in the man.

Like the other criticisms posted here, I have noticed how he has time and time again distorted matters to suit himself, not least, and this is my allegation, changing the status of those who post just because he disagrees with their views. I am, of course, speaking personally here as someone who a few weeks ago suddenly found myself labeled as a 9/11 truth critic and then a few days ago lost my validated poster status. Now I can be blunt and have been told off by the other mods for it but to change one's status is just petty and shows an element of fascism which is strange considering the site we are on. I'd be happy to retract this accusation and apologize if I am proved wrong.

Tony reminds me of those people who pretend not to be racist or homophobic but who in reality think otherwise. He claims to be anti-big brother and there to support the common man yet his actions confirm an extreme lack of tolerance and a desire to control all and sundry.

[andyb]

BTW, this is a lie.

You have started PM'ing users complaining of some sort of conspiracy against you.

Who have I sent such private messages to?
Nobody.
And why circulate such BS?
The trouble is I can't defend myself against lies if nobody has the courage to run their concerns, rumours or fears past me.

are you being serious Tony??? I'm very happy to post the PM you sent me if you would really like me too. While we're at it can you explain why there are people registering for the site that have never been approved by you and hence can't post?

[TonyGosling]

Errr.... yes I am serious.
What I sent you was an exact copy of this public forum post
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... 085#116085
which was already on the forum - to draw it to your attention.

I don't approve people, Ian Neal does.

BTW, this is a lie.

You have started PM'ing users complaining of some sort of conspiracy against you.

Who have I sent such private messages to?
Nobody.
And why circulate such BS?
The trouble is I can't defend myself against lies if nobody has the courage to run their concerns, rumours or fears past me.

are you being serious Tony??? I'm very happy to post the PM you sent me if you would really like me too. While we're at it can you explain why there are people registering for the site that have never been approved by you and hence can't post?

[andyb]

I didn't realise you'd just copied and pasted Tony, so apologies if I was a bit hasty. I wasn't aware that Ian approved new users and was under the understanding it had been yourself. I still know of certain people waiting to get approved.

[ian neal]

Yeah I had missed few. I've just approved those who awaiting.

[TonyGosling]

apologies if I was a bit hasty.

That's fine.
We live in fraught times where its easy to jump to conclusions.
I'm not immune, either.

[Rory Winter]

Who or what is www.911forum.org.uk?

Is this a mirror-site of Nineeleven? If so, under whose ownership? If this means that Tony has mirrored the Nineeleven forum on a mirror-site which he owns then the question of whether or not he should be given copies of the Nineeleven archives all becomes rather academic, does it not?

Seems to me he's already got 'em! Smart move, Tony. Now what you gonna do? Rewrite history? Remove those you've declared non-persons? When's the victory parade?

Bet you're chuckling how you pulled a fast one on everyone when we wusn't looking!

[scubadiver]

This development makes me feel uneasy about the campaign

[chrisc]

Who or what is www.911forum.org.uk?

Is this a mirror-site of Nineeleven?

No, it a frame, try Right Click -> This Frame -> Show Only This Frame in Firefox...

[Rory Winter]

Thanks for that, chrisc. Your instructions worked. So what's the point of having a frame? And does it stay intact even if the parent site was removed?

Shows just how uneasy it's made many of us feel. This is not a healthy regime.

[chrisc]

So what's the point of having a frame?

To make it look like 911forum.org.uk is this site

And does it stay intact even if the parent site was removed?

No.

http://w3schools.com/html/html_frames.asp
http://www.tizag.com/htmlT/frames.php

Frames have sucked for over a decade:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html

[Rory Winter]

To make it look like 911forum.org.uk is this site

Now why would anyone want to do that? Even if it fooled the search-engine spiders (which it's not likely to have) it would only direct traffic to a different site not owned by the 911 Truth Forum but by an individual currently in dispute over his job!

I really don't see any point to this exercise other than to cause confusion and trickery. Maybe I'm missing something? I hope so.

I think we are due a proper explanation from Tony.

And besides, I thought Tony had been suspended from his job. If so, how come he's still using the title of Editorial? Shouldn't this have been changed?

[chrisc]

I think we are due a proper explanation from Tony.

He mentioned here last month: http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... 298#112298 it really isn't a big deal...

[Rory Winter]

He mentioned here last month: http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewt ... 298#112298

Thank you for that, chrisc. So it was public & upfront (sigh of relief). So what do you feel is the thinking behind this?

[chrisc]

So what do you feel is the thinking behind this?

It's the domain name he wants to use for the site, that's all, he had nothing else to do with the domain while the future of the site is being sorted (or not) so he used the registrants facility to point it at this site using frames, as I said no big deal...

[Rory Winter]

That your proposal is that the site is copied to two sites on two URL's
with 2 different managements.

It's the above that concerns me. This is a proposal made by Tony, ie that the site is copied to two sites on two URLs with two different managements.

It seems to me that establishing this frame is the first step towards achieving this and if so that rather pre-empts any decision taken by the National Committee.

I have followed some of the correspondence that was flying-around in which Tony offered to set up this domain: 'Forum Domain Move MUST HAPPEN NOW', (19 April 2008).

But so far as I know it was never agreed upon and was thus a fait accompli on his part.

[outsider]

we're in a difficult situation as a movement with Nick K being accused of holocaust denial by Rachel North just after I institute a 'get tough' policy on the holocaust

The original article "outing" Nick Kollerstrom was posted on 14th April on Blairwatch and your, Mossad trick - Link 9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial post was made on 17th April... How is the 14th "after" the 17th...?

In addition I'm not sure that saying he has been "accused of holocaust denial" is the right way to describe the situation since he has said:

I note you seem to object to my having defended the proposition that: no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber. You call that Holocaust Denial, well I’m proud to be associated with it. I’m happy to defend, it any time, any place. It happens to be true!

http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014#comment-11826

He is clearly pleading guilty isn't he?

I am not going to get into the Forum debate, other than to say that I am happy with Tony Gosling's handling of the Forum, in general. We all make mistakes, and Homophobic or Anti-Semitic or Holocaust Denial posts should be deleted as soon as the Moderator is appraised of them, rather than letting them fester.
Not that there has been much of any of these posts left on the site.
I also have every confidence in Ian's integrity and good will toward 9/11 Truth.

Thanks, chrisc, I wasn't aware of NK's contribution, and he is now off my Christmas Card List. Such posting is SICK, bigtime.

[Rory Winter]

Thanks, chrisc, I wasn't aware of NK's contribution, and he is now off my Christmas Card List. Such posting is SICK, bigtime.

I think a lot of people are reading rather a lot into what NK has said. In a free society (and is our society really that free?) people should be able to debate issues in an intelligent way. But everything is so PC and muzzled that people get labelled for the slightest, outrageous thing.

Having belatedly read our 77 celebrity, Rachel-have-you-bought-my-latest book?-from-North-London, nothing could be clearer than what drives her jaundiced views of those who happen to inconvenience her own pet theories on 911 and 77. NK's some might think eccentric views about the Holocaust certainly gave her a soap-box from which to bang away on her favourite prejudices.


Cashing-in on Misfortune?

The Holocaust was terrible: 6 Million dead if we are to accept those figures. And I, like most, was subject to Zionist propaganda in this matter. It was only much later that I discovered that it wasn't only about Jews but all manner of folk that Hitler didn't like.

But, hey, what about the 8 Million dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since Gulf War I? Nobody, least of all our celebrity from North London, talks about that. What? In our free, democratic society? No way! This is conspiracy theory stuff!

Oh yeah? See http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=11670

RACHEL, WE ARE JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE THAN THE NAZIS NOW!

And you and I, dear girl, have no room in which to be self-righteous anymore. I wonder what you might have to say of the inconvenience that Dr Gideon Polya reminds us? Or wouldn't that be quite PC?

PS: Apologies for going off-topic but this subject has to be dealt-with whenever & wherever it's raised.

PPS: And credit where credit is due. It was Tony who gave the above article sticky status for which I am eternally indebted to him

[paul wright]

Anyway, Nick's comments put online where anyone can and have scooped them up reveals uttermost naivete or stupidity
He's almost written a book on 7/7 and then he balls it up with this stuff
Nick, how stupid or perfidious can you be?
I hosted this guy and cannot believe he has messed with the movement in this way
Is it his connection with the BBC that has led him to this?
Tristan (BBC) has an an arm and a leg to trash us on this

[Rory Winter]

Tristan (BBC) has an an arm and a leg to trash us on this

Well, let them. They trash us anyway. But everytime some pretentious gold-digger tries to get PC about this subject let us remind them of the Muslim Holocaust to which, with good reason, no one in the West has the courage to admit.

After all, nobody likes being called a Nazi, especially when they use the Holocaust as an excuse for their condoning of wickedness. It's not just 911 and 77 about which the Rachels of our world remain in denial. It's a lot more. And their avoidance of the Muslim Holocaust should tell us just where they're coming from (and going to, some might add).

(All this should really be on Tony's thread about the Mossad link. After recent events, I never thought I'd be saying so but I must say that Tony's decisive action to scotch any extended discussion which might be construed by our opponents as 'Holocaust Denial' was not only understandable but, in the circumstances, probably the best thing to do.)

[ian neal]

Anyway, Nick's comments put online where anyone can and have scooped them up reveals uttermost naivete or stupidity
He's almost written a book on 7/7 and then he balls it up with this stuff
Nick, how stupid or perfidious can you be?
I hosted this guy and cannot believe he has messed with the movement in this way
Is it his connection with the BBC that has led him to this?
Tristan (BBC) has an an arm and a leg to trash us on this

Reveals the uttermost naivete and stupidity? Yes, sadly for Nick this is so with the emphasis on naivete beyond belief

Has he messed with the movement? Not intentionally IMO so don't be overly harsh. The damage he has done is mostly to himself. The strength of 'the movement' and the strength of the case for a truly independent inquiry into July 7 or 9/11 does not rely upon one person.

As this article from this morning's Jewish Chronicle which seems perfectly fair illustrates the damage is largely to Nick rather than the movement. Sure the BBC's Conspiracy Files will no doubt use this to attack Nick (since Nick gave an interview on July 7) and seek by association to attack the wider campaign on July 7.

College rejects Shoah denier
25/04/2008
By Daniella Peled
A university has withdrawn a researcher’s fellowship after he published an article claiming that the gas chambers of Auschwitz never existed.

Nicholas Kollerstrom, an academic specialising in astronomy, posted the article, The Auschwitz “Gas Chamber” Illusion, on the website of the revisionist Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.

He claimed that only one million Jews died in the war and that “the only intentional mass extermination program[me] in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans”.

Dr Kollerstrom, 61, an honorary research fellow at University College London until Tuesday, stood by the claims this week, but expressed surprise that they had caused offence.

And he insisted the university “had not actually told me what’s so terrible about the article”.

He complained that he had been accused of “thought-crime” after spending months researching it.

And he added: “If a smaller number were gassed, then surely the Jewish community should be pleased that it wasn’t so ghastly.”

He wrote: “Let us hope the schoolchildren visitors are properly taught about the elegant swimming-pool at Auschwitz, built by the inmates, who would sunbathe there on Saturday and Sunday afternoons while watching the water-polo matches; and shown the paintings from its art class, which still exist; and told about the camp library which had some 45,000 volumes for inmates to choose from, plus a range of periodicals; and the six camp orchestras at Auschwitz/Birkenau, its theatrical performances, including a children’s opera, the weekly camp cinema, and even the special brothel established there.”

Dr Kollerstrom, of St John’s Wood, North West London, said he prefers to call himself a revisionist rather than a denier. Revisionists, he said, “want to look at European history without quite so much hate and bitterness”.

He also claimed he was the victim of “a calumny” by bloggers who had accused him of far-right sympathies and posted on the internet an image doctored to show him in Nazi uniform.

“I have some very good Jewish friends and have never had the slightest interest in the Nazi movement,” he said. “I never go to Germany. I have always belonged to things like the Green Party, CND and Respect.”

A UCL spokesman said: “The views expressed by Dr Kollerstrom are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of UCL, such that we wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.

“We, therefore, have no choice but to terminate Dr Kollerstrom’s research fellowship with immediate effect.”

A source at the university also said that there had been concern at opinions Dr Kollerstrom had expressed regarding conspiracy theories over the July 7 2005 London bombings and the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. His areas of research include Newtonian theory and the 19th-century British discovery of Neptune. He is also the author of a yearly guide to Gardening and Planting by the Moon, which contains chapters on “Using the Star Zodiac” and “The Moon and Crop Yield”.

Here is an extract from one of his postings on the CODOH website:

“Zyklon-B was used at Auschwitz, as an insecticide. It was vital in attempting to maintain hygiene that mattresses be deloused. Cyanide gas was absorbed on to clay-type granules, designed to make the deadly gas as ‘safe’ as it could be.

“If you go to Auschwitz today, you can’t see any authentic gas chambers. You see stone huts, and experts have testified that they could not have been used to gas people, owing to problems in sealing them up (Zyklon-B released its cyanide gas rather slowly).”

In another, he wrote:

“The verdicts of Nuremberg were made final and binding for the post-war FRG [Federal Republic of Germany]. Germany has since paid a hundred billion Deutschmarks to Israel by way of Holocaust-compensation — clearly, that needs to be refunded.

“Germany should take the advice of Iranian leader Ahmadinajad and stop paying it, because that funding provides undue motivation for holocaust ‘memories’. Germany is helping to maintain the holocaust legend, by thus aiding the state of Israel.”

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId ... &ATypeId=1

To reiterate what I have said already on this issue, the British 911 Truth campaign finds the views expressed by Dr Kollerstrom are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of the campaign, such that we wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.

[xmasdale]

I think the British 9/11 Truth Campaign should write a disclaimer, signed by the co-chairs and send it immediately to the Jewish Chronicle, Blairwatch and any other interested party.

Having said that I am sorry for Nick because I have never heard him express hate towards anyone and he is most definitely not a Nazi, nor even right-wing. I think his error is naivety in not realising that if you express any kind of view which doubts even details in the official story about the holocaust, you upset a very well-organised and powerful lobby who will seek to destroy your reputation.

No one should expect to be able to deal with this issue in a gentlemanly way. It is not a discussion about cricket.

[ian neal]

To reiterate what I have said already on this issue, the British 911 Truth campaign finds the views expressed by Dr Kollerstrom are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of the campaign, such that we wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.

Noel

I think this is a fairly unequivocal disclaimer along with my other postings pointing out that Nick is an independent campaigner/researcher who (to the best of my knowledge) has had no dealings with the campaign as such. Certainly as unequivocal as UCL's disclaimer. Do you feel more is required? If so what?

[xmasdale]

Homophobic or Anti-Semitic or Holocaust Denial posts should be deleted as soon as the Moderator is appraised of them, rather than letting them fester.

Though in the case of Tony repeatedly posting homophobic posts himself and refusing to discuss issues I raised with him about them, we can hardly expect him to remove his own posts. However, it appears that eventually, after a lot of pressure, someone removed them. It could have been Tony or Ian Neal

Noel

[Rory Winter]

Ian, isn't it a bit harsh to say that we wish to have no association with its originator? To dissociate from certain views is one thing but we shouldn't allow ourselves to fall victim to an ADL-style witch-hunt.

As well as that I believe 911 Truth should hold its ground and be quite clear that it promotes the freedom of expression within the given parameters. If we don't do that we also will be scalped by the Zionist Lobby.

Incidentally, the 8 Million Muslim Holocaust appears to be an Achilles Heel.

I challenged Rachel of NL twice on why she never mentions the 8 Million Muslim Holocaust on her blog (lead article at present). She answered the first & then got flustered and shut down the dialogue. So the second challenge never got published! Full of angst about things PC while studiously ignoring the real world!

(As of Saturday 26 April, I note that Aunty Rachel has entirely removed all my comments from her lead article! )

The Zionist Lobby aren't as powerful as they'd like to make out; they should be confronted & their hysteria challenged. We should hold our position as if it were another Stalingrad!

I have observed that the Zionist Lobby has a predatory nature in that it preys on the collective guilt of European gentiles. That guilt is precisely the weakness which drives gentiles to adopt PC positions about the Holocaust. But where there is no guilt (as one of south Asian origins I carry no sense of guilt for what Europe's Christians may have done in the past) they can be met and dealt with on level ground.

Zionists thrive on chutzpah so why not just reflect that attitude right back?

[chrisc]

isn't it a bit harsh to say that we wish to have no association with its originator?

I don't think it's harsh.

[Anthony Lawson]

What happened to the Quest for Truth?

To reiterate what I have said already on this issue, the British 911 Truth campaign finds the views expressed by Dr Kollerstrom are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of the campaign, such that we wish to have absolutely no association with them or with their originator.

Please note, as a once-validated poster on this site, and, I believe, an honest researcher and contributor to the world-wide 9/11 truth movement, in general—through the videos I have made and several radio discussions I have taken part in—I am appalled that one person can make such a statement on behalf of the British 9/11 Truth campaign, as a whole.

I also find that the views expressed by Ian Neal are diametrically opposed to the aims, objectives and ethos of this website, a stated objective of which is:

THE QUEST FOR TRUTH

What if there is some truth in what Dr Kollerstrom has written? Can you prove that there is not, Mr. High-and-Mighty Neal? Your position is based purely on long-held and quite possibly mistaken beliefs, not on proven facts. I cannot possibly know if Dr Kollerstrom’s findings are accurate, and neither can you, because the moment someone like him says anything off the official storyline, they are hounded out of their livelihoods, the countries in which they have sought refuge, slammed into jails or otherwise gagged.

Do you think that this is the proper way of conducting a QUEST FOR THE TRUTH?

You are condoning unfair punishment for a man who holds sincere beliefs which you and those like you have never looked deeply into, let alone made any attempt to discover whether or not such beliefs have any merit. You must know that they have never been tested in any properly constituted court of law, nor have the assertions that the gas chambers were for killing people, rather than for delousing clothes and bedding at a time when typhus—which is spread by fleas and ticks—was endemic in the Nazi prison/labour camps.

I don’t know what is the truth, and neither do you, because a huge protective agency is preventing us from finding out. So you, and those on this forum who agree with you, are the equivalent of an ADL-controlled lynch mob. You, its self-proclaimed leader, are like a rotten, bought-off sheriff who doesn’t give a damn for finding out whether or not someone is guilty of any crime or even a misdemeanour, he just wears a shiny badge which makes people think he is committed to do so.

You and your ilk make me sick.

[Busker]

Psst!

[whispers]

This is all a distraction.

Stick to 9/11 and don't be dragged off onto other subjects.

Anyone with "product" to sell will have their own angle to do just that, sell their product.

Let's keep to the facts as we know them eh folks?

[outsider]

Why don't all the 'Holocaust Deniers', anti-Semites and their apologists toddle off like good little Nazis and post on a Combat 88, NF or BNP forum? Haven't they got the message that their sorry ass*s aren't wanted here? Apart from the fact that it is offensive in the extreme to Jews in general and survivinng victims and relatives of victims of the Nazis in particular, as well as the great majority of non-Jews, it plays into the hands of 9/11 Truth enemies, and I'm sure that these 'Freedom of Speech' merchants cannot be unaware of the fact that 'Holocaust Denial' has been used to smear our campaign, and to lobby for our sites to be closed down. Is that the object of the exercise??
Toddle off, peddle your repulsive poison elsewhere, and do us all a favour.
If I were a Moderator, you would get one warning (providing your post was not too abusive) and then you would be banned. I do not wish to be a Moderator, I have neither the time not inclination for such a thankless task.